LDS

[jsfisher]

expulsion I assume.

I would really love to be able to strip the LDS and Scientology of their tax exemption

Expulsion maybe eventually, but you have to have a go with good old-fashioned brain-washing first, er, I mean refresher course.

 

[RandFan]

Again. The quote comes before the response. Otherwise you're making the baby FSM cry.

Secondly. Consequences? Will there be spankings? Will she be forced to write 'I will not think for myself' over and over again on a blackboard? What are the consequences in the LDS church for thinking for oneself?

expulsion I assume.

I would really love to be able to strip the LDS and Scientology of their tax exemption

Excommunication or disfellowship. Excommunication means you are no longer a member. Disfellowshiped means you are restricted. Both are forms of shunning. The more cult like the religion the more heavily a church will rely on shunning. For Scientologists it means the very real possibility of never seeing a loved one again. It's not as likely for Mormons (AIU) but in many cases it leads to children (many if not most being LGBT) being thrown into the streets where they turn to drugs, prostitution and other crimes. Utah sees rise in LGBT teens becoming homeless.

Families are forever... unless of course you are gay or don't fit in.

I should note that though homeless gay teens are a serious problem not all Mormons disown their children for being gay. But I should also note that AIU the Church has not done much to address the issue.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Q: Why do you take two Mormons with you fishing instead of one?
A: If you take only one he will drink all of your beer.

A well worn joke and a true story.

I guess that one has made the rounds a bit. When I last heard it the Mormons
were changed out for Republicans and the lager for smoking weed.

 

[ravdin]

I have stories. None of them quite as steamy as the Trey Parker Kind but some pretty interesting stories nonetheless. Mostly though it was just doors shut in our faces. Two years of knocking doors. Like the proverbial fly hitting the windshield, I probably don't have the guts to do that again.

I have a friend who did that in Cleveland. He managed to win over one convert. She still keeps in touch with him. He feels terrible about it.

 

[Cat Tale]

Okay, just about any other day and this wouldn't be funny, but today...

I was just searching for a user's manual for my Auvio cordless headphones, and apparently one of the big things they're used for is tada! metal detecting! Now if Joseph Smith just had modern technology.

 

[skyrider44]

A point that could be made is that being the talented con-artist some of us believe him to have been, he would have had a very useful set of interpersonal skills needed to deliver the Word of God^tm to the unwashed masses in a convincing way. God words in mysterious ways, and He may have chosen Joseph Smith for those qualifications.

In post 1321, you state the following: "Joseph Smith. . .was arrested and convicted of 'glass looking.' That makes him a con artist, a crook, a charlatan."

If you were even remotely interested in learning the truth about Joseph Smith--in looking at the evidence, as you and your fellow critics tirelessly insist LDS must do--you would avoid making rash, prejudicial statements such as the one I have quoted. In fact, no sincere, reasonably objective seeker of truth would even consider making such a statement absent compelling, unambiguous evidence.

For those interested in a balanced perspective about Joseph Smith's alleged criminal activities, I encourage them to read "Legal Trials of the Prophet: Joseph Smith's Life in Court," Joseph I. Bentley, FAIR. In his introduction to what is a lengthy article, Bentley states: "Knowing that not once [emphasis by Bentley] was he found legally guilty of any
[emphasis by Bentley] charges against him has strengthened my own faith and regard for Joseph Smith. . . ." Note the words "legally guilty"; they are highly instructive.

Bentley begins, understandably, with the 1826 case, observing that those involved gave conflicting testimony and analyses. It's noteworthy that Josiah Stoal, who had hired Joseph to dig for Spanish treasure Stoal believed was buried on his land, turned the tables on the prosecution and came to Joseph's defense. Also noteworthy is the fact that Joseph--even though he was being paid--convinced Stoal that they should abandon the effort. Bentley writes: ". . .under New York law at that time only Stoal could complain he had been cheated, Joseph had to be acquitted and discharged."

Bentley then discusses cases against Joseph Smith in Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois. Any objective reading of those cases makes fisher's portrayal of Joseph Smith resonate with falsity and bias, if not something akin to religious bigotry.

 

[RandFan]

For those interested in a balanced perspective about Joseph Smith's alleged criminal activities, I encourage them to read "Legal Trials of the Prophet: Joseph Smith's Life in Court," Joseph I. Bentley, FAIR. In his introduction to what is a lengthy article, Bentley states: "Knowing that not once [emphasis by Bentley] was he found legally guilty of any
[emphasis by Bentley] charges against him has strengthened my own faith and regard for Joseph Smith. . . ." Note the words "legally guilty"; they are highly instructive.

Due you have a 3rd party source? Why shouldn't we see that as self serving?

 

[jsfisher]

In post 1321, you state the following: "Joseph Smith. . .was arrested and convicted of 'glass looking.' That makes him a con artist, a crook, a charlatan."

If you were even remotely interested in learning the truth about Joseph Smith--in looking at the evidence, as you and your fellow critics tirelessly insist LDS must do--you would avoid making rash, prejudicial statements such as the one I have quoted. In fact, no sincere, reasonably objective seeker of truth would even consider making such a statement absent compelling, unambiguous evidence.

Thank you for the sermon.

For those interested in a balanced perspective about Joseph Smith's alleged criminal activities, I encourage them to read "Legal Trials of the Prophet: Joseph Smith's Life in Court," Joseph I. Bentley, FAIR...<snip>...

Been there, read that. Your assessment as being balanced is an opinion I do not share.

 

[RandFan]

Bentley then discusses cases against Joseph Smith in Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois. Any objective reading of those cases makes fisher's portrayal of Joseph Smith resonate with falsity and bias, if not something akin to religious bigotry.

BTW:

Thanks. I understand your point. But here's the problem. We have some facts. What explanation best fits the facts we have?

Facts:

1. Joseph Smith used rocks he claimed were supernatural to search for treasure.
2. Joseph Smith was accused of fraud for claiming to use supernatural means to find treasure.

Possible conclusions:

1. There is a god and that god relied on a heretofore supernatural treasure hunter to recover buried golden plates.
2. A con-man who was caught trying to run a scam changed his methods to make it more difficult for him to be brought up on charges but still make money without working for it.

"You wanta make real money, you gotta start a religion!" --L. Ron Hubbard

 

[skyrider44]

Due you have a 3rd party source? Why shouldn't we see that as self serving?

Some of the critics' sources are well-entrenched (up to their necks) in religious bigotry re. the LDS Church. In fact, FAIR compiled a list of them not long ago; I'll try to dig it out.

 

[SezMe]

Some of the critics' sources are well-entrenched (up to their necks) in religious bigotry re. the LDS Church. In fact, FAIR compiled a list of them not long ago; I'll try to dig it out.

Are there any critics of the LDS that are not bigots? If so, can you link to some writing that is both skeptical (or critical or questioning, or doubtful, etc.) and not bigoted?

 

[RandFan]

Some of the critics' sources are well-entrenched (up to their necks) in religious bigotry re. the LDS Church. In fact, FAIR compiled a list of them not long ago; I'll try to dig it out.

I look forward to reading it, however, it won't do much good if you can't address my last post.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Some of the critics' sources are well-entrenched (up to their necks) in religious bigotry re. the LDS Church. In fact, FAIR compiled a list of them not long ago; I'll try to dig it out.

Are those in the scientific community, particularly those working in the fields of anthropology, archaeology and genetics, up to their necks in religious bigotry? Is that why they do not affirm the claims made in the BoM regarding ancient American civilizations?

 

[John Jones]

Some of the critics' sources are well-entrenched (up to their necks) in religious bigotry re. the LDS Church. In fact, FAIR compiled a list of them not long ago; I'll try to dig it out.

Randfan asked if you had any 3rd party source.

 

[tyr_13]

Psychological manipulation.

When I was on my mission I was often told to look for and focus on people going through a transition. Recently married. Recently had children. Recent death in the family. Loss of job. Etc..

It's marketing. The LDS church uses the very same techniques as those first formulated by Edward Bernays during the mid 20th century (see Century of the self).

After returning from my mission I went into direct sales and then marketing. The techniques I used on my mission worked well in both. Some of the same techniques are used by magicians and politicians.

Humans don't make purely rational decisions (see Spock Fallacy). That is one of the the biggest misconceptions about human psychology and human behavior that there is. If you want to sell beer you don't point out that it makes you drunk. You sell an idea, a concept consisting of mostly illusions of youth, partying, happiness and or status and prestige. If you want to sell Mormonism you use love of family, fear of death, desire for community, desire for stability and convention. You use black and white thinking, purity vs evil. Most important you love. In the Mormon Church this is called fellow-shipping or friend-shipping. In many cults it's often called love bombing.

My last girlfriend moved to Texas from New York and was having a hard time of it. Then she got lots of attention and love from Mormons. She became a Mormon, got married, and had a child within half a year.

She was dissatisfied with the Catholic church for nonsensical policies on homosexuals, pointless ritual, and opulent spending on useless buildings.

Definitely more of an emotional decision maker over rational/reasoning. We quarreled over my belief that governmental decisions should be based on provable, verified reasoning and not because people feel things. To this day she insists that it means I discount people's feelings, that I won't make decisions taking emotion into the equation or ever put emotion over reasoning.

I maintain that I in fact, choose to date her. I'm confident this disproves her hypothesis.

 

[Richard Masters]

Exactly. One can't have it both ways: that "wine" meant "grape juice" in reference to the sacrament in the D&C, but "alcoholic wine" in reference to the Word of Wisdom in the D&C. Either the early Mormons were using alcoholic wine for the sacrament, or the Word of Wisdom bans non-alcoholic grape juice specifically.

Yeah. I'm surprised to see the LDS student manual make the argument that wine is plain grape juice.

http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-...-81-89/section-89-the-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng

D&C 89:5–6. What Kind of Wine Was Used in the Sacrament?

The Lord’s instruction in verse 6 that for the sacrament the Saints use “pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make” reinforces His earlier instruction that “you shall not purchase [for the sacrament] wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

“Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you” (D&C 27:3–4).

The “pure wine” in Doctrine and Covenants 89:6 “is understood to mean new or unfermented grape juice, since the Word of Wisdom declares unequivocally against the internal use of alcohol in any form.

 

[Richard Masters]

Here's some trivia, about why hot drinks were discouraged in the 18th and early 19th century. Those trying to find an evidence-based reason for things in the Word of Wisdom generally look toward modern medical advice, but to see where Joseph Smith was coming from, it helps to look at medical beliefs of his day and see how he was offering what would have sounded like typical evidence-based advice:

From a summary of observations on influenza, from a Cyclopedia of Practical Medicine, 1833 London:

From Observations on the Ill Health of American Women, Virginia, 1839, talking about "the diseased appearance and premature decay of our teeth":

Health and beauty advice from 1834:


Elements of Pathology and Therapeutics, 1829:

Much earlier, London 1765:

More health advice from Edinburgh, 1739:



So hot drinks were behind everything from decayed teeth, to skin eruptions, to increased symptoms of influenza, inflammatory diseases and poor health in general. It's no wonder God discouraged them.

Not to mention, there are plenty of references to strong drink in the Bible. The side-effects of alcohol and other common drinks have been known for ages.

 

[Richard Masters]

Wow.

Who is the aesthetically challenged depiction in your avatar of?

If you are honest you will inform your Bishop and Stake President of your beliefs and take the consequences... and by the way, I personally very rarely eat meat nor have I advocated eating it, nor mentioned refrigeration.

 

[Richard Masters]

Cat, I'd like to add my voice to the others who have complimented you.

I don't need you to agree with me. I would like for you to make an informed decision. I'm comfortable that you have done that. I could sit down and have a glass of beer Hawaiian Punch with you and Pup any day.

+1 on this.

 

[Richard Masters]

... baby FSM cry.
...

Awww