LDS

[RandFan]

No... not "wine" as the word means today. but the pure fruit of the vine. Not fermented nor alcoholic.

Yeah, I remember this bit of fantasy. I'm pretty sure there is no evidence of that whatsoever. Wine is and was by definition alcohol.

History of Wine

Definition of WINE

1. the alcoholic fermented juice of fresh grapes used as a beverage
2. the alcoholic usually fermented juice of a plant product (as a fruit) used as a beverage <blackberry wine>

 

[RandFan]

I have reported this post for drivin us all nuts by not putting things in the proper order.... seriously , it's not rocket surgery

Mormons like anyone else can be very prideful and stubborn. What I don't get is why bother to try and convert people if you are just going to be rude? What's the point of coming here and an annoying people?

 

[Richard Masters]

The Word of Wisdom, in which we are advised to abstain from alcohol, is revelation from Jesus Christ. He is the greatest Scientist of all, and does not require "new knowledge" from mere mortals.

The Church (LDS) did not always advise Mormons to avoid alcohol. In fact, somewhere in Doctrine and Covenants it says that it's OK as long as it's made by Mormons.

Also, no, Jesus Christ was not a scientist.

 

[Slowvehicle]

No... not "wine" as the word means today. but the pure fruit of the vine. Not fermented nor alcoholic.

So the "apostles" could not have been drunk on "grape juice" because it was too early in the day?

So new "grape juice" would burst "grape juice skins" in which old "grape juice" was stored, without fermentation?

So Jesus (called "the Christ" by some) violated Levitical law, and substituted "grape juice" for the sweet, alcoholic wine prescribed for the Passover feast?

So, at the Wedding Feast in Canaan, this same Jesus was told that most people saved the worse "grape juice" for when the guest were drunk (presumably on the better "grape juice")?

Pull the other one, it's got a cork...

 

[The Norseman]

No... not "wine" as the word means today. but the pure fruit of the vine. Not fermented nor alcoholic.

Is that from the original Greek? If it's been mistranslated for the past 2000 years, I think that the world's linguists should be made aware of it.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

The Word of Wisdom, in which we are advised to abstain from alcohol, is revelation from Jesus Christ. He is the greatest Scientist of all, and does not require "new knowledge" from mere mortals.

But then why did the greatest scientist of all time chose NOT to share little things like how to make antibiotics or vaccines?
Both things would have been possible in roman times and would have made the followers of jesus clearly healthier and longer living than those not following this advise.
Yet the greatest scientist ONLY shares whatever folk wisdom and common knowledge was available at the time the book was written. As if written by a fallible, not all-knowing human.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

The Word of Wisdom, in which we are advised to abstain from alcohol, is revelation from Jesus Christ. He is the greatest Scientist of all, and does not require "new knowledge" from mere mortals.

I think you'll find that the church of christ, scientist is a different organization than the church of jesus christ of latter day saints. As for me, I prefer jesus christ superstar. Better songs...

 

[Cat Tale]

By the way, where's your proof the Joseph Smith wasn't a convicted con-artist? The public record seems clear.

I'd like to reverse the question and ask whether or not they've ever found the testimony or the verdict records for the trial? As I understand it, there is nothing that confirms that he was "convicted." Yes, there's no doubt that he was tried, but it is my understanding that there are minor court records like he was being tried on a misdemeanor charge, he stayed overnight one night... but it is my understanding that none of those actually state that he was convicted. You say the public record seems clear, and yet where is this public record? Smith said he was cleared. Without a court transcript or the actual verdict, or a newspaper article at the time of the event, I don't see how we can conclude that he was actually convicted -- at least not at this trial, nor his 1830 trial, where the verdict is also missing. Again, I'm not doubting that he went to trial, I'm looking for what evidence there is that he was found guilty.

I'll be happy to rethink my opinion on that if there is evidence.

 

[tsig]

I'd like to reverse the question and ask whether or not they've ever found the testimony or the verdict records for the trial? As I understand it, there is nothing that confirms that he was "convicted." Yes, there's no doubt that he was tried, but it is my understanding that there are minor court records like he was being tried on a misdemeanor charge, he stayed overnight one night... but it is my understanding that none of those actually state that he was convicted. You say the public record seems clear, and yet where is this public record? Smith said he was cleared. Without a court transcript or the actual verdict, or a newspaper article at the time of the event, I don't see how we can conclude that he was actually convicted -- at least not at this trial, nor his 1830 trial, where the verdict is also missing. Again, I'm not doubting that he went to trial, I'm looking for what evidence there is that he was found guilty.

I'll be happy to rethink my opinion on that if there is evidence.

Would it really make any difference to you if he was found guilty?

 

[Cat Tale]

No... not "wine" as the word means today. but the pure fruit of the vine. Not fermented nor alcoholic.

You say, not 'wine' as the word means today, so let's go to what the word meant in 1830, three years before the WoW was given. This is from an 1830 Walker's Dictionary go to page 1022

Wine, wine, n.s. [... Sax; vinn, Dutch.] The fermented juice of the grape. Prov. xxiii. Preparations of vegetables by fermentation, called by the general name of wines, have quite different qualities from the plant; for no fruit, taken crude, has the intoxicating quality of wine. Arbuthnot.

 

[Cat Tale]

The Church (LDS) did not always advise Mormons to avoid alcohol. In fact, somewhere in Doctrine and Covenants it says that it's OK as long as it's made by Mormons.

Correct, D&C Sect. 89 v. 6, though it is only referring to wine, to be used for the sacrament (the sacrament is actually v. 5).

 

[Janadele]

Section 89
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng

5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

 

[Richard Masters]

Correct, D&C Sect. 89 v. 6, though it is only referring to wine, to be used for the sacrament (the sacrament is actually v. 5).

Section 89
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng

5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

Yes, and also Doctrine and Covenants 27:3, which says that you may not purchase wine or strong drink of your enemies.

 

[StankApe]

I wonder if somewhere in that silly little book of yours it says "and thouest musteth puteth thine comments belowest the posteth that thouest are referencingeth"

and wine was booze, seriously, yer religion is a splinter faction from the Catholics, ya know? the first christian religion? The one founded by one of Jesus little power hungry buddies? Guess what, they drank alcoholic wine.

Granted, there is no evidence that Jesus actually existed (but that's another thread, for the purposes of this point I will assume he did) , but the rules of the religion are fairly straight forward for 1800 years or so, and then all of a sudden some hobo gypsy dude, who sees magic stuff in a hat, writes a book and people actually think this changes the nearly 2000 years of historical fact? (the rituals and all of that stuff is fairly well known historical fact, written down,(as monks were some of the few people allowed to read and write by the bloody catholics).


You don't find this a little bit silly? Hard to believe? It doesn't smell like David Koresh at all to you?

 

[Cat Tale]

Yes, and also Doctrine and Covenants 27:3, which says that you may not purchase wine or strong drink of your enemies.

It was in 1851 that it went from wisdom to a commandment, that was under Brigham Young. [editted to add, but they still didn't push members to abide by it, and probably for good reason].

Here's an interesting side-note that I just found. It goes along with Pup's post (I think he posted it, we at least talked about it), about how the portion of the WoW concerning meat is often overlooked within the church. I'm a born carnivore so it's something that I confess a problem with as well, but... I once asked why we don't abstain from meat anymore and was told it was because we have modern day refrigeration. That initially the portion about meat in the summer dealt with spoilage. But I was just looking up about it and found this absolutely interesting -- it's not about spoilage, it's about animals having spirits, and that God gave them to us to use only in times of necessity.

Lorenzo Snow in a meeting on May 5, 1898 [he was President of the council at the time] "believed that the Word of Wisdom was a commandment and that it should be carried out to the letter. In doing so, he said, members should be taught to refrain from eating meat except in dire necessity, particularly since Joseph Smith taught that animals have spirits... [he said] he looked upon the Word of Wisdom as a commandment and that all members should observe it, but for the present, he said, no definite action should be taken except the members should be taught to refrain from the use of meat."

Unfortunately, this wasn't something that he was to make stick, during his presidency.

 

[Janadele]

The following is a summary I have compiled from Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage:
We should avoid gluttony, we should avoid extremes in all our habits of eating; and as was told unto Adam, so is it told unto us:
The Word of Wisdom, like other revelations that have come in the present dispensation, is not wholly new. It is as old as the human race.
All the essentials and principles of the Word of Wisdom were made known unto Adam in his immortal state... that he must not take into that body certain things which were there at hand. He was warned if he did, his body would lose the power which it then held of living for ever, and that he would become subject to death.
The Lord said "Touch not these things, for in the day that thou doest it thy life shall be shortened and thou shalt die"... therein consisted the fall... the eating of things unfit, the taking into the body of the things that made of that body a thing of earth.

 

[StankApe]

Nobody is saying Jesus said it was cool to get hammered!!

 

[Bad vibe]

The Lord said "Touch not these things, for in the day that thou doest it thy life shall be shortened and thou shalt die"... therein consisted the fall... the eating of things unfit, the taking into the body of the things that made of that body a thing of earth.

Thats original, the fall of man was down to a dodgy kebab and not sin?

 

[pakeha]

Thanks to all who have made this such an interesting thread to read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_Sanctum_Mystery

Much more fun than Mormonism!

Much more fun than many entertainment choices.
Thanks for reminding us of this classic gem.

Is that from the original Greek? If it's been mistranslated for the past 2000 years, I think that the world's linguists should be made aware of it.

Ah.
Then the blunders in the opening section of the Book of Abraham are not the only 'improved' etymologies in this literature?

 

[Empress]

I'd like to reverse the question and ask whether or not they've ever found the testimony or the verdict records for the trial? As I understand it, there is nothing that confirms that he was "convicted." Yes, there's no doubt that he was tried, but it is my understanding that there are minor court records like he was being tried on a misdemeanor charge, he stayed overnight one night... but it is my understanding that none of those actually state that he was convicted. You say the public record seems clear, and yet where is this public record? Smith said he was cleared. Without a court transcript or the actual verdict, or a newspaper article at the time of the event, I don't see how we can conclude that he was actually convicted -- at least not at this trial, nor his 1830 trial, where the verdict is also missing. Again, I'm not doubting that he went to trial, I'm looking for what evidence there is that he was found guilty.

I'll be happy to rethink my opinion on that if there is evidence.

A belated welcome to the JREFF, Cat Tale! Nice to have a Mormon here who answers questions, and is obviously a delightful person. Most of my family is active Mormon, and it's nice to have someone here who gives a good impression of your church.

In answer to your question, I am not aware of any extant records that show that JS was found guilty of glass-looking, only that he was held for trial on the charge. It is significant in my mind, however, that the Church appears to have denied that he was ever put on trial for the charge until those records were discovered. Prior to that it seems it was hand-waved away as spurious claims of people who hate your church, and that JS was simply a day-worker for a farmer who did some treasure seeking--not a glass-looker, himself.

Now that the records have been found, the church seems to have maintained a "so-what" attitude towards the trial. It seems to me that since your prophet has a direct line to god, god should have mentioned a little something to one of the prophets at some time, explaining that the church was going to look foolish if they kept denying JS was tried on those charges, once the records surface. Like all other religions, the successive heads of your church just don't seem to know anything more than mortal man of the time in which they lived.