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Empress said:
14 years old? Or was he 16 years old, as in the earliest known account that JS dictated about his first vision? "In the 16th year of my age, the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord." It was several years later that the First Vision changed from "the Lord", to "personages" and finally the official version given by the church today. You'd think he'd remember something kind of important like that.



And despite JS getting these one-on-one visits from above, oddly his mother and brothers Hyrum and Samuel, still continued to attend the local Presbyterian Church until their names were stricken from the records in 1830 for having been absent from meetings for the last year and a half. So for approx five years after this wondrous occurrence, his own family seems to have been completely uninterested in the fact.



Of course, at that time "all the ordinances" essentially included things like laying on of hands, anointing with oil, etc. The sort of things many churches engage in, and that you read about in the Bible. Strangely, it's only after JS became a Mason that the rest of the ordinances show up--curiously akin to the same Masonic rituals that he'd just learned. Though no doubt, that's just another coincidence.
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I believe the official story is that the Masons corrupted the original ordinances and JS restored them to their original purity.

Humm,,,sounds familiar.
 
foster zygote said:
ah yes, "love me or i'll destroy you". If your god is truly a god, then it will know what is required to make itself known to me. The fact that it seems unable to reveal to me anything much different from every other "god" presented by humanity supports the conclusion that it is just as imaginary as any other "god". It least i can rely on some future mormon adding me to the list of those to be baptized posthumously, eh?
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^^this^^
 
Janadele said:
Astreja,
Despite the fact that you are a Spiritual child of "a God", our Heavenly Father, you and most mortals are most probably not worthy of "a one-on-one physical encounter with a god." You are in no position to demand a personal manifestation.

With this Universe and a myriad of Spirit offspring, it is doubtful our Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ will ever visit you personally while in mortality. It is for your benefit, not His, that you accept His love and sacrifice.

However, as I have posted previously, the Spirit of Jesus and the third member of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit is available to guide you to the truth through our Lord's delegated representatives. If you choose to reject this guidance and the Scriptures revealed through His messengers, and will not listen to His Prophets, including Thomas S. Monson who is the Lord's Living Prophet on the earth today... then it is tough luck :D and you take the consequences of your choices.
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Not worthy? What did JS do that made him worthy?
 
Janadele said:
Despite the fact that you are a Spiritual child of "a God"...
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Not yet demonstrated. I see no credible empirical evidence for "spirit" or for your god.

you and most mortals are most probably not worthy of "a one-on-one physical encounter with a god." You are in no position to demand a personal manifestation.
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Janadele, it is not for you to decide whether I am or am not "worthy," or if I am or am not in a position to make such a demand. I reiterate that I will accept nothing short of a personal physical encounter. No scriptures. No prophets. No middlemen of any sort.

And if I am not worthy of an encounter with your purported god, then said god is not worthy of Me. I want nothing whatsoever to do with a being that cannot be bothered to provide Me with the necessary information to avoid future unpleasantness.

You see, if it truly was a god, and not just a figment of someone's pious imagination, it would know very well why I reject prophets and scriptures. Over the years I've seen all too many pious frauds and people purporting to speak in the name of various deities, but none of them seem to reflect -- In word or deed -- anything that I could actually love or worship. Frankly, I've had vastly more fulfilling "spiritual" experiences with characters from fantasy novels.

It is for your benefit, not His, that you accept His love and sacrifice.
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I unconditionally reject all sacrifices on My behalf. No one dies in My place.

However, as I have posted previously, the Spirit of Jesus and the third member of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit is available to guide you to the truth through our Lord's delegated representatives. If you choose to reject this guidance and the Scriptures revealed through His messengers, and will not listen to His Prophets, including Thomas S. Monson who is the Lord's Living Prophet on the earth today...
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How, um, very convenient that a representative of *your* particular church happens to be one of the lucky "worthy" ones. I smell a rat.

And I reject your alleged "prophets." To Me, they are nothing more than ordinary mortals who are pretending to speak for gods.

...then it is tough luck :D and you take the consequences of your choices.
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Logical fallacy: Argumentum ad baculum. Your use of a grinning smiley is also noted. Janadele, joking about such "tough luck" says volumes about your character. Suffice to say that I never want to end up like you.

I accept the consequences of My decision. Bring it.
 
asydhouse said:
You are so busted, Skyrider!

I wouldn't care what you choose to believe if you were simply kind, decent people. But you are callous, smug self-righteous evangelists spreading lies and confusion.
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If one cannot argue on the merits, he/she predictably resorts to personal attacks, as you ably demonstrate here. That's unfortunate.

: If you had any personal honour. . . .
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This is a particularly egregious personal attack; I should think it would be beneath you.

: . . .stand up like a man of heart, search your soul and commit to truth and honest compassionate humility. Retire to a monastery or a log cabin and spend your days praying and doing chores, if you must be a religious drone. Or better yet, keep your mouth shut and help in a homeless shelter, or something.
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Do you have anything of substance to say?
 
Well, Janadele, and Skyrider certainly show me the true face of Mormonism.

The Petty, holier-than-thou side. The 'We're better than you, because we believe'.

You're smug, and self-assured that you're so much better than us.

Guess what? You aren't. You believe it's true only because you believe. It's no different than anyone else from any other religion. Everyone says that THEIR faith is the one true faith, and if you don't follow THEIR faith, you will be punished for all eternity.

Even sadder, when people ask questions about discrepancies, you turn a blind eye to them. You refuse to acknowledge them at all, because you worry they just might be true, so instead you call them lies of Lucifer.

Your smug smilies show that you really aren't serious about discussion, but then, you ever have been. You want people to share the same faith you have, and you cannot understand when people.. are critical, and ask questions.

It's a hollow empty faith you have. But hey, you're better than us. Smarter, superious, because you believe! Go on believing. I'll learn more about your church from those who are willing to question it than anything you can possibly say.
 
Janadele said:
:D
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Janadele, do you know the difference between right and wrong?

The idea that your personal God would send millions or billions of people to death and eternal suffering is reprehensible and wrong.

So why are you smiling about it?

I had the impression you were a good person; but just deluded. These big smilies at the most inappropriate times lead me to rethink that position.

Do you really believe the people of JREF deserve to suffer -in any way- for failing to disregard the flesh-n-blood reality of their lives and the physical evidence of this world in favor of a bunch of words in a book that no one can be sure ever existed?

If you do, shame on you. :(
 
There are many allegations refering to "suffering" and "torture" ... Where in any of my posts has this concept been put forward?
 
skyrider44 said:
If one cannot argue on the merits, he/she predictably resorts to personal attacks, as you ably demonstrate here. That's unfortunate.



This is a particularly egregious personal attack; I should think it would be beneath you.



Do you have anything of substance to say?
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Janadele said:
:D
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The hilited looks to me like an egregious personal attack.


ETA: my hiliting
 
I just used the Search Thread button (at the upper right of the page) and searched for 'torture'.

It seems it was only used here:

RandFan said:
It's immoral even when god does it.

  • Noah's Flood.
  • First born of Egypt.
  • Amalekite children.
  • Moabite children.
  • David's child with Bathsheba.
It's immoral to torture children with drowning in front of their mothers. It's inhumane to kill innocent children that have done nothing wrong.
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Janadele said:
There are many allegations refering to "suffering" and "torture" ... Where in any of my posts has this concept been put forward?
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I suspect the reference is to this:
Janadele said:
Ignore the Gospel of Jesus Christ at your peril, and spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.
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Parenthetically, I think that Ben Franklin would have found it hilarious to be baptized postumously as a Mormon. John Wesley, on the other hand, would have been pissed. :)
 
Janadele said:
The Lord has given all the evidence he needs to give. Every opportunity has been given to mankind to be able to progress through the eternities. Each individual is responsible for their own salvation. Ignore the Gospel of Jesus Christ at your peril, and spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.
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I could bother to look up the other posts in a similar vein, but I'm hoping your memory is better than that.
 
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