Merged Has this structural engineer been debunked? / Astaneh-Asl "melting of girders"

[tfk]

Finding only two such pieces is telling. It indicates that there was a strong acid in that areawhere they found the steel. This would be predictable since Rotten Rudy's OEM would have had to have a massive bank of batteries for emergency back-ups.

Exactly.

Although, I'm pretty sure it was three, out of about (quick estimate, ±15%):

25,000 columns & 50,000 beams.

So, three beams make it a very rare occurrence.

It immediately tells us that "steel, powdered gypsum, water & heat" were NOT the only ingredients required. If that were the only requirements, then this sort of erosion / corrosion would have been the rule, not the exception.

Because there was powdered gypsum, steel, water & heat everywhere in the debris pile, and the erosion would have been very common.

There was definitely some other ingredient (i.e, source of sulfide or a catalyst) required. Something rare.

This also tells us that this is a major flaw with Mr. Cole's rather lame attempt at a replicating experiment.

He merely threw some steel & wall board & water together & heated it up with a surface wood fire for (IIRC) about 1 day.

tom

 

[Senenmut]

Yes. So?
What "high temperature", remo? Put a number to it!
And exactly: INTERGRANUAL melting. Do you understand where that melting occurs? Do you think they places thermite there?
And exactly: CORROSION! That's a gradual process!

tell us about this "gradual process." tell us how this gradual process could turn steel flanges that started out an inch think and turn them to paper thin as Astaneh described. remember what kind of time frame we are taking about.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/10/03_grou.html

 

[Senenmut]

Hiya Remo,

BTW I also personally asked Jonathan Barnett about the suflidized steel just last month and he specifically said that it could have been created due to battery acid, acid rain, or gypsum wallboard burning. He also absolutely rejects the idea that thermate could have been a cause of the sulfidized steel, and tells 9/11 Truth activists to relax and take it easy there is no evidence of CD. Thought you should know that the guy you and other 9/11 truth activists quote is unambiguously not in agreement with your central claim.

did you ask him how many pieces of stee he saw that looked "evaporated" when he first got to the site? "steel members" is plural. how many of these pieces of steel were laying around?

barnett
"A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures, Dr. Barnett said."

also, why did you not askthe hard question about how much metal they actually got to dissolve with sisson's experiment that completely bypassed how the office fire/debris fire created the eutectic to begin with. ive emailed sisson but have not got a response in regards to how "little metal" was actually dissolved.

sisson:
... However, preliminary experiments[5] at 1100 °C with mixtures of FeS and FeO placed on the steel surface and heated in air indicated that the reaction was not fast and dissolved little metal in 24 h. This observation indicates that the liquid slag attack probably took place during the prolonged exposure to the fire in the rubble.

 

[Spanx]

Can anyone tell me if wallboard contains sulfur ?

 

[ozeco41]

Can anyone tell me if wallboard contains sulfur ?

Lots of it. The main component is gypsum - "....calcium sulfate dihydrate, with the chemical formula CaSO4·2H2O.[3]....is the main constituent in many forms of plaster.." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsum

The commonest brandname for wallboard in Australia is "Gyprock".

 

[Spanx]

Lots of it. The main component is gypsum - "....calcium sulfate dihydrate, with the chemical formula CaSO4·2H2O.[3]....is the main constituent in many forms of plaster.." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsum

The commonest brandname for wallboard in Australia is "Gyprock".

Thanks Oz, would I be right in assuming sulphur can corrode steel ? Or is it only thermite/Thermate/nanothermite and Vegemite that corrodes steel ?

 

[chrismohr]

Thanks Oz, would I be right in assuming sulphur can corrode steel ? Or is it only thermite/Thermate/nanothermite and Vegemite that corrodes steel ?

This is exactly what Barnett told me, that the sulfur in the burning gypsum could have caused the eutectic steel phenomenon. Richard Gage told me that would not be possible because gypsum is chemically unreactive, but somewhere in the Gage debate thread someone found a waste company website that said burning gypsum wallboard creates sulfur dioxide.

 

[chrismohr]

did you ask him how many pieces of stee he saw that looked "evaporated" when he first got to the site? "steel members" is plural. how many of these pieces of steel were laying around?

barnett
"A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures, Dr. Barnett said."

also, why did you not askthe hard question about how much metal they actually got to dissolve with sisson's experiment that completely bypassed how the office fire/debris fire created the eutectic to begin with. ive emailed sisson but have not got a response in regards to how "little metal" was actually dissolved. This has been a great frustration for me with this movement, where claims about what a scientist may have said lead me down dead ends.

sisson:
... However, preliminary experiments[5] at 1100 °C with mixtures of FeS and FeO placed on the steel surface and heated in air indicated that the reaction was not fast and dissolved little metal in 24 h. This observation indicates that the liquid slag attack probably took place during the prolonged exposure to the fire in the rubble.

Sorry Senenmut I didn't ask him your questions. From my limited understanding tho, there appears to be consensus that the eutectic steel phenomenon took more than 24 hours, as sisson would imply. Since a 9/11 Truth activist told me that Barnett had personally told him something horrific may have caused the eutetic steel phenomenon, I asked him personally to verify this and he said no, it was probably cause by fire and acid rain, gypsum, or battery acid.

 

[ozeco41]

Thanks Oz,..

No problem...

...would I be right in assuming sulphur can corrode steel ?...

...indirectly - yes. Other members here will be better at explaining the chemistry. I trained as a civil engineer when two of the requirements were FAIL chemistry and PASS beer drinking. I achieved the first and got an honours pass in the latter.

Or is it only thermite/Thermate/nanothermite and Vegemite that corrodes steel ?

I won't "bite" on the Vegemite (pun intended). I'm English by birth naturalised Australian and I don't like Vegemite.

 

[Spanx]

http://www.abwuk.com/regent-street-disease-masonry-cracking-and-embedded-metalwork/

Steel obviously steel can corrode in many different ways yet the only corrosion at wtc was caused by thermite.

Did anyone from the truth moment check the condition of the steel before the attacks ?

Oz, I'm a marmite man myself.

 

[remo]

nano-gypsum .

HOW does calcium sulphate become elemental sulfur?
INSIDE iron rich microspheres?
By gravity kinetics?

This wallboard is an exceptional material. By various accounts, after it created hundreds of tons of DUST rampaging through the streets of Manhattan; ground alongside 280 acres of 'super light´® concrete flooring and everything else on every floor to ppm on the way down at close to free fall - actually AT free fall WTC7; [nothing suspicious there to building experts] energy left inherent in the wallboard also possibly helped fuel the extraordinarily HOT spots in the pile for 13 weeks after the attack, where steel 'running down the channel rails like lava in a volcano', 'like in a foundry' melted?
corroding the steel later analyzed as having been vaporized, evaporated and also supplying the elemental sulfur to the insides of iron rich microspheres.

Does elemental sulfur come from gypsum wallboard?

I am obviously not expert either, but what temperature does wall board fire to these days to make molybdenum microspheres and evaporate -vaporize - steel in the pile, while dusting barium and lead and titanium in ppm all over Manhattan?

 

[Spanx]

HOW does calcium sulphate become elemental sulfur?
INSIDE iron rich microspheres?
By gravity kinetics?

This wallboard is an exceptional material. By various accounts, after it created hundreds of tons of DUST rampaging through the streets of Manhattan; ground alongside 280 acres of 'super light´® concrete flooring and everything else on every floor to ppm on the way down at close to free fall - actually AT free fall WTC7; [nothing suspicious there to building experts] energy left inherent in the wallboard also possibly helped fuel the extraordinarily HOT spots in the pile for 13 weeks after the attack, where steel 'running down the channel rails like lava in a volcano', 'like in a foundry' melted?
corroding the steel later analyzed as having been vaporized, evaporated and also supplying the elemental sulfur to the insides of iron rich microspheres.

Does elemental sulfur come from gypsum wallboard?

I am obviously not expert either, but what temperature does wall board fire to these days to make molybdenum microspheres and evaporate -vaporize - steel in the pile, while dusting barium and lead and titanium in ppm all over Manhattan?

Just like you Remo, I am no expert however I am willing to listen to opinions.

I hope the following link answers your question. I would appreciate a response from you as I have tried to answer a question for you. Why you couldn't look for the answer yourself

http://www.ehow.com/how_5700758_extract-sulfur-gypsum.html

 

[Oystein]

tell us about this "gradual process." tell us how this gradual process could turn steel flanges that started out an inch think and turn them to paper thin as Astaneh described. remember what kind of time frame we are taking about.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/10/03_grou.html

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_2854449b6c54b826e6.jpg[/qimg]

Great.

Please put numbers to the time frame: Are we talking milliseconds, seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks?

What time frame would it take to execute a controlled demolition?


And - you quoted a question I asked, but didn't answer - what temperatures does it take to get eutectic corrosion?

 

[Oystein]

...I am obviously not expert...

Correct.
It shows in your latest post. It's nonsense from start to finish, except for this observation.

 

[Senenmut]

This is exactly what Barnett told me, that the sulfur in the burning gypsum could have caused the eutectic steel phenomenon. Richard Gage told me that would not be possible because gypsum is chemically unreactive, but somewhere in the Gage debate thread someone found a waste company website that said burning gypsum wallboard creates sulfur dioxide.

barnett is blowing hot sulfur dioxide up your buttocks with the whole wallboard scenario!

 

[Sunstealer]

Incineration of drywall is also a poor disposal option because the
sulfate present in gypsum is converted to sulfur dioxide gas. Sulfur dioxide gas reduces the alkaline scrubbers ability to remove other acidic gases.12

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/dec/wastediv/recycling/gypsum.pdf

Hazardous Decomposition - Above 1450° F could produce SO2 and CaO.

http://www.americangypsum.com/pdfs/msds.pdf

It only takes two sheets of burning wallboard to send sulfur dioxide levels above the state limit at the Spokane trash incinerator.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...dhYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LPADAAAAIBAJ&pg=3216,4182102

Incineration: Incineration may produce toxic sulfur dioxide gas emissions. In fact, by law, it is now illegal to incinerate drywall in the state of California due to strict air emission standards. This is a trend also being initiated in other states as well.

http://www.sesi.net/recycling_drywall.html

I won't even bother going into how SO2 is released at even lower temperatures in a reducing atmosphere as I think the point is proven.

 

[Senenmut]

Sorry Senenmut I didn't ask him your questions. From my limited understanding tho, there appears to be consensus that the eutectic steel phenomenon took more than 24 hours, as sisson would imply. Since a 9/11 Truth activist told me that Barnett had personally told him something horrific may have caused the eutetic steel phenomenon, I asked him personally to verify this and he said no, it was probably cause by fire and acid rain, gypsum, or battery acid.

of coarse something like that would take way longer than 24 hrs under ideal conditions. HOW LONG is the question. if it is not feasible under normal office fire/debris fire scenario, then a paridigm shift might be needed. sisson (another professor at WPI) has done an experiment trying to reproduce the effects seen on the wtc steel using powders. he could only get "little metal" to dissolve the steel even at 1100C in 24 hrs!!! he will not tell us how "little" it was. consider this. from professor astaneh's observations and measurements, we learn that 1 inch of steel was gone after 0 to 18 days after 911. thats min and max corrosion rate.
"Steel flanges had been reduced from an inch thick to paper thin, Astaneh said."
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/10/03_grou.html

and another piece that experienced 15.9mm of steel wastage in only 0 to 8 days. the article does say he spent a fews days collecting samples so it might be alittle higher than 8 days. but i bet if astaneh would be willing to share his data with us, we could get the precise days of his observations.

so if sisson only got 5 micrometers of steel to dissolve in 24 hrs, we could multiply that out by days and get a number. would we see 1 inch gone at a max of 18 days or even 15.9 mm in alittle over a week. remember, he bypassed the office/debris fire even creating the eutectic. sisson just put it right on top of the steel and heated it up!!

 

[Senenmut]

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/dec/wastediv/recycling/gypsum.pdf

http://www.americangypsum.com/pdfs/msds.pdf



http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...dhYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LPADAAAAIBAJ&pg=3216,4182102

http://www.sesi.net/recycling_drywall.html

I won't even bother going into how SO2 is released at even lower temperatures in a reducing atmosphere as I think the point is proven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1zLIqitCqg

 

[ozeco41]

...Does elemental sulfur come from gypsum wallboard? ...

What is the relevance of this question? Have you put forward a claim that CD was achieved using some chemical related to sulphur?

...I am obviously not expert either,...

Agreed on the "obviously" but don't overlook the false dichotomy (trichotomy to be pedantic ) in the remainder of your sentence...

...but what temperature does wall board fire to these days to make molybdenum microspheres and evaporate -vaporize - steel in the pile, while dusting barium and lead and titanium in ppm all over Manhattan?

..the three are not mutually exclusive...each one stands alone as questions which could legitimately arise once you make a claim and demonstrate where those criteria fit into the reasoning of your claim. Till you do however they are illegitimate questions.

Just like you Remo, I am no expert however I am willing to listen to opinions....

So am I, and most of us here are prepared to listen to opinions especially where we are not personally expert. There are several non-engineer members posting here whose opinion in their area of expertise I accept without question. Plus a few engineers whose claims I can assess before accepting. (Don't ask...either of the obvious come backs....)

However don't overlook that remo is pushing you down a false track to suit his "truther style of logic". The issues he pursues are only legitimate in a context of an hypothesis that there was some form of CD at WTC on 9/11.

The ruling hypothesis is that there was no CD at WTC on 9/11 - in fact multiple complementary hypotheses. Whilst there is not one hypothesis in favour of CD and which satisfies the relevant prima facie standard of being worthy of discussion.

So no matter how far we/you pursue Remo down this rabbit hole all you will find is one rabbit still digging and heading further and further away from anything related to 9/11. And "related" means related by evidence and logical reasoning to a legitimate claim.

So, if we decide to follow the track that you suggested, if you and I put our heads together we could put forward the "Marmite Did It" claim for WTC destruction. (OR at risk to my survival the Southern Hemisphere version "A World First - Vegemite Used in Demolition - Australian Economy enters Boom")

Either would have as much credibility as the none existent hypotheses in favour of thermite.

(A risky aside -- does anyone know the intrinsic heat content of 1) Marmite; OR 2) Vegemite???)

 

[Redwood]

Originally Posted by remo
HOW does calcium sulphate become elemental sulfur?
INSIDE iron rich microspheres?
By gravity kinetics?

This wallboard is an exceptional material. By various accounts, after it created hundreds of tons of DUST rampaging through the streets of Manhattan; ground alongside 280 acres of 'super light´® concrete flooring and everything else on every floor to ppm on the way down at close to free fall - actually AT free fall WTC7; [nothing suspicious there to building experts] energy left inherent in the wallboard also possibly helped fuel the extraordinarily HOT spots in the pile for 13 weeks after the attack, where steel 'running down the channel rails like lava in a volcano', 'like in a foundry' melted?
corroding the steel later analyzed as having been vaporized, evaporated and also supplying the elemental sulfur to the insides of iron rich microspheres.

Does elemental sulfur come from gypsum wallboard?

I am obviously not expert either, but what temperature does wall board fire to these days to make molybdenum microspheres and evaporate -vaporize - steel in the pile, while dusting barium and lead and titanium in ppm all over Manhattan?

Acids formed by burning of plastics like PVC, added to gypsum from wallboard and water such as was being continually sprayed into the debris pile to combat the fires would certainly cause corrosion of the steel, especially at high temperatures. As only a few pieces were corroded this way, I suspect that it occured under a localized condition with the right combination.