Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dan O.]

Tracy Martin wasn't there, but his story demonstrates what he was told about the circling

Where does Tracy repeat anything about circling? I read that article multiple times and could not find it. Why don't you quote the passage or admit you were wrong as I did earlier when I acknowledged the source of the circling lie.


Wait, here's a result form google...

Source: Zimmerman says Trayvon circled his SUV, frightened him
articles.orlandosentinel.com/.../os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zim...
May 3, 2012 – ... Trayvon Martin as suspicious, the teenager was circling his vehicle
on ... "[ Trayvon's father] Tracy Martin told me that that's what [police] told ...
​

It's the first hit in a search for [Tracy Martin circling his car]. Says it right there, you don't even have to click on the link. Unless of course you do click on the link. Then you get the real story.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The missing factor thats being danced around by anyone who claims it's perfectly reasonable to see a person walking down the street and assume they are burglars... is race.

The recent spate of break-ins in Zimmerman's neighborhood had young black males as their suspects.

Zimmerman saw a young black male walking down the street and that translated into "suspicious".

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0712/FBI-report-No-evidence-George-Zimmerman-is-racist
Even one of the most skeptical local investigators with the Sanford, Fla., police department, Chris Serino, suggested to the FBI that Zimmerman followed Trayvon “based on his attire,” not “skin color,” [/I]

Who said anything about racial bias or animus?

No need to put words in my mouth to assume a position of righteous indignation.

The simple fact of the matter was that the suspects for the previous break-ins were young black males, and Trayvon Martin was a young black male.

It's a reasonable conclusion to draw that Martin's race played a role in Zimmerman's suspicion of him because it fit the description of the other suspects.

And it's certainly a lot more reasonable than your laughable assertion that we believe Martin was acting suspiciously simply because Zimmerman said he was acting suspiciously.

Even after the lead detective concludes race didn't play a role, it's reasonable for you to conclude it really did ? Now that is something laughable.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So I'm confused... first you were saying this:

And now you are saying this:

So which is it? Was it an attack done out of teenage stupidity rather than a murder attempt?

Or was it actually a murder attempt fueled by a "murderous rage"?

You seem to be all over the place.

Yes, because it could be any number/combination of those things.

Zimmerman had a broken nose as a result of a single punch. Aside from that, he had two small cuts on the back of his head and some minor abrasions.

Yes, as I said, he had multiple injuries.

What about those injuries do you find to be conclusive evidence of a beating as opposed to a fall and/or a scuffle?

I don't take the injuries by themselves without context, and I don't claim to know for sure what 'level' of beating results in what level of injury.

That witness said Martin was either punching Zimmerman or restraining him.

Zimmerman said Martin was repeatedly slamming his head into the concrete. No mention of any punching after the initial one that knocked him to the ground. And Zimmerman did not have any injuries consistent with being repeatedly punched. Nor did Martin have any injuries on his hands consistent with someone who was repeatedly punching another person.

That seems to fairly conclusively rule out punching.

So from the witness account, that leaves us with Martin merely restraining Zimmerman. No mention of Martin repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head into the concrete.

As a matter of fact, none of the "numerous" witnesses who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman reported seeing him repeatedly slam Zimmerman's head into the concrete, as Zimmerman claims.

I look forward to seeing the explanation you offer for that. I'm sure it will be very entertaining. Perhaps it will involve more "unintentional embellishment".

Well, there must be some reason why witness 8 initially offered that GZ was getting beaten MMA style. Why do you think it was ?

As for the other witnesses, you want me to do what, exactly ? Explain why they couldn't see TM on top of GZ hitting his head into the sidewalk ? I don't find any major inconsistencies in what they say they say and what GZ said happened. You'll need to enumerate the inconsistencies you claim there are, and then we can address each one.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

<SNIP>
Also, there were multiple witnesses to it. It happened.

I want to know your motive for hammering home that he technically does not have a conviction for the incident that no one is disputing happened?

Downplaying the proven fact that Z became profane and tried to push an undercover officer, who we know had made it clear to Z that he was an undercover officer, is almost as weird as those that tried to downplay Z molesting that girl several times over the course of 10 years.

HOW do 'we' know he made it clear he was an undercover officer ? Because the officer said so ?

The officer who was killed because of not identifying himself, As Newtons Bit pointed out ?

Here is one of those 'multiple witnesses' corroborating GZ claim that the officer didn't identify himself:
http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/17653292/data/2/-/dbht3oz/-/5-31-12-FDLE-int-W-R.wav
The specific part about the fight starts about 7:30 in.

So, please, how is it that we 'we know had made it clearto Z that he was an undercover officer' ???

 

[bookworm]

So you believe Zimmerman's suspicion of Martin was rooted in his own fear and paranoia rather than anything Martin was actually doing?

Because of the recent burglaries, I believe it could have played a part in why Zimmerman found him suspicious, yes.

 

[Newtons Bit]

He was sent to anger management, which will often get a continuance and eventual dismissal of a lot of violent misdemeanor charges. I personally think that the idea sucks, especially in a country where it is possible to get a CCW card.

Right, however I think the "deal" here is that the prosecution couldn't advance the case and get a guilty verdict. Chiefly because the complainant was dead, but also that the complainant's behavior, similar to what GZ described when the alleged assault took police, resulted in him being shot and killed by police officers.

It's really hard to build a case around that.

 

[johnny karate]

Even after the lead detective concludes race didn't play a role, it's reasonable for you to conclude it really did ? Now that is something laughable.

The lead detective also concluded the following:

Zimmerman, by his statements made to the call taker and recorded for review and his statements made to investigators following the shooting death of Martin, made it clear that he had already reached a faulty conclusion as to Martin’s purpose for being in the neighborhood.

...

[Zimmerman's] actions are inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of another subject.

...

Investigative findings show that George Michael Zimmerman had at least two opportunities to speak with Trayvon Benjamin Martin in order to defuse the circumstances surrounding the encounter. On at least two occasions, George Michael Zimmerman failed to identify himself as a concerned resident or a neighborhood watch member to Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

Do you agree with these conclusions, or have you reached different - and by your standard, laughable - conclusions?

 

[johnny karate]

And again, I must note the incoherent view of suspicion. Martin putting his hand in his waistband from a distance (even if we assume this is the case) is suspicious, but Zimmerman digging in his pockets after coming within swinging distance of the guy he decided to run after is perfectly innocent, and certainly merited no action on Martin's part, according to Zimmerman's defenders. And again, this makes no sense.

Excellent point.

Great post all around, Mumbles, but I thought this bit of illumination deserved special note.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, because it could be any number/combination of those things.

So where in Zimmerman's account does "teenage stupidity" suddenly transform into "murderous rage"?

And what information or evidence about Martin do you have that makes it so plausible to you that he would fly into a "murderous rage" and try to kill a total stranger without provocation?

Yes, as I said, he had multiple injuries.

The majority of which were relatively minor.

I don't take the injuries by themselves without context, and I don't claim to know for sure what 'level' of beating results in what level of injury.

So the answer to my question is that there is nothing about the injuries you find to be conclusive evidence of a beating as opposed to a fall and/or scuffle.

But you just believe the head-slamming story anyway.

And what "context" are you talking about exactly?

Well, there must be some reason why witness 8 initially offered that GZ was getting beaten MMA style. Why do you think it was ?

You'll have to ask him. But it contradicts Zimmerman's version of events, so we can definitely rule it out. Martin did not repeatedly punch Zimmerman.

Again, that leaves us with restraining him. Not slamming his head into the concrete, but merely restraining him.

As for the other witnesses, you want me to do what, exactly ? Explain why they couldn't see TM on top of GZ hitting his head into the sidewalk ? I don't find any major inconsistencies in what they say they say and what GZ said happened. You'll need to enumerate the inconsistencies you claim there are, and then we can address each one.

I'm not discussing inconsistencies. (But if I was, one witness says Martin was merely restraining Zimmerman. Zimmerman claims Martin was slamming his head into the concrete. That's an inconsistency.)

I'm discussing corroborating evidence. And the fact that there is none. Even from the people who witnessed the altercation.

I'm just wondering if that makes you at all doubt that particular part of Zimmerman's story (the way you already doubt other parts).

 

[johnny karate]

Right, however I think the "deal" here is that the prosecution couldn't advance the case and get a guilty verdict. Chiefly because the complainant was dead, but also that the complainant's behavior, similar to what GZ described when the alleged assault took police, resulted in him being shot and killed by police officers.

It's really hard to build a case around that.

Then one has to wonder why Zimmerman took the deal. It seems he would have almost been guaranteed an acquittal.

 

[triforcharity]

Yes, we should absolutely consider that TM attacking GZ may have been an act of teenage stupidity. Because the facts of the case agree with that interpretation.

Which, again, we don't know one way or another. We don't know who threw the first punch.

(Before you go on the attack, I'm leaning more towards GZ being justified, even though he may have been at fault for starting the fight)

 

[Dancing David]

Yes he does. I linked to a copy of his record from the Orange County, FL Circuit Court Clerk of the Court Records.

Unless you perhaps meant to add the words "conviction for" to that sentence? Just like I made the mistake of calling the deal he made a legal term for a different type of deal.

He was arrested for it.

He has the charges for it on his records as the records page clearly shows.

You are incorrect, he does not have what is referred to as a criminal record in the US, since charges were not followed by a conviction this is not going to show up on the background checks that would be required for say working in a school or the like.

Misdemeanor charges will not show up in those sorts of background checks. They are not usually part of what is referred to as a criminal record in the US

 

[This is The End]

You are incorrect, he does not have what is referred to as a criminal record in the US, since charges were not followed by a conviction this is not going to show up on the background checks that would be required for say working in a school or the like.

Misdemeanor charges will not show up in those sorts of background checks. They are not usually part of what is referred to as a criminal record in the US

No one ever claimed he has some technical term of "a criminal record in the US".

You are arguing against a straw-man. That is just as bad as when others jumped upon the chance to point out that technically it was not a "plea-deal".

The fact is that the incident happened.

No one, including Zimmerman, disputes that it happened.

He made a deal to enter a pre-trial diversion program to get out from under the charges.

Those are the facts.

If you don't like them, that is fine.

 

[This is The End]

Remember, after he attended that anger management program to get out from under the cop pushing incident we have evidence that it did not stick:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

UPDATE 34, 4:30 p.m. EDT, Friday, March 30: Report: Zimmerman lost job for being too aggressive; new witness disputes self-defense account

George Zimmerman, Trayvon martin's shooter, was fired from a 2005 job as a security guard for excessive aggression, a former co-worker told the New York Daily News Thursday. The paper reports that Zimmerman had worked on and off for several firms that "provided security to illegal house parties."
"Usually he was just a cool guy. He liked to drink and hang with the women like the rest of us," the paper's source said. "But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When the dude snapped, he snapped." The report continues:

"He had a temper and he became a liability," the man said. "One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted," he said. "It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out…

"He definitely loved being in charge. He loved the power. Still, I could never see him killing someone. Never," he said.

Obviously that is all hearsay. We should take it with the same grain of salt that we take Zimmerman's account of the events of the night in question.

But aside from that, how do you get fired from an illegal bouncer job for anger issues??

 

[KatieG]

Which, again, we don't know one way or another. We don't know who threw the first punch.

(Before you go on the attack, I'm leaning more towards GZ being justified, even though he may have been at fault for starting the fight)

For shooting TM?

 

[leftysergeant]

Which, again, we don't know one way or another. We don't know who threw the first punch.

(Before you go on the attack, I'm leaning more towards GZ being justified, even though he may have been at fault for starting the fight)

We have no proof that anybody got punched at all, aside from the word of a known sociopath.

 

[Newtons Bit]

No one ever claimed he has some technical term of "a criminal record in the US".

You are arguing against a straw-man. That is just as bad as when others jumped upon the chance to point out that technically it was not a "plea-deal".

The fact is that the incident happened.

No one, including Zimmerman, disputes that it happened.

He made a deal to enter a pre-trial diversion program to get out from under the charges.

Those are the facts.

If you don't like them, that is fine.

You're manufacturing your own controversy to deflect from the simple truth: the assault charge and the resisting arrest without violence charge against GZ were baseless and filed by an criminally aggressive officer who was justifiably slain by other police officers due to his own recklessness.

The "deal" was just a way for the prosecutors to save face and for GZ to save money: lawyers are expensive.

 

[triforcharity]

You claimed he took a plea. He did not plead guilty to anything. He does not have an assault or resisting arrest crime on his record.

While not technically a plea deal, you're correct, he's still got to ask for that. It's not really offered per se.

 

[bookworm]

We have no proof that anybody got punched at all, aside from the word of a known sociopath.

Sorry...this is laughable. We have the pictures of his freakin bloody face and a witness seeing him being punched!

 

[johnny karate]

You're manufacturing your own controversy to deflect from the simple truth: the assault charge and the resisting arrest without violence charge against GZ were baseless and filed by an criminally aggressive officer who was justifiably slain by other police officers due to his own recklessness.

The "deal" was just a way for the prosecutors to save face and for GZ to save money: lawyers are expensive.

So your position is that the case against Zimmerman was too flimsy to warrant a conviction? And yet Zimmerman voluntarily agreed to enter a pre-trial diversion program anyway?

I certainly hope you're not a defense attorney.

(And BTW, public defenders are usually quite affordable.)