Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

These answers clarify things for me. It sounds very much like, according to these standards, Martin would have been justified in shooting Zimmerman?

But Zimmerman is not justified in shooting Martin, because Martin didn't overreact, was reasonable, and because Zimmerman instigated the incident. Is that a good summation of the "Zimmerman's guilty" side?

To make it plain, if someone is following me, harassing or intimidating me, and they reach into a pocket, I have the right to shoot them? (Because I fear they are reaching for a gun and my life is in danger.)

What an interesting worldview that represents.

I'm not sure how you got from "punching" to "shooting" out of anything I posted. That's a pretty big leap. And everything that followed was a whole lotta straw.

 

[Giz]

If the person is entirely unknown to you, then yes, you're justified in hitting that person.

No (not unless you are in a lawless hellhole). You shouldn't be resorting to physical violence without more proof than "he put his hand in his pocket". Jesus.

I'm not so certain that you would be justified in shooting them, however.

How very civilized of you.

 

[leftysergeant]

No (not unless you are in a lawless hellhole). You shouldn't be resorting to physical violence without more proof than "he put his hand in his pocket". Jesus.

When a fat little pervert chases you down and starts loud-talking you like a gang banger, then puts his hand in his pocket, it is probably not a good idea to wait and see whether he takes out a gun or a bag of Skittles. Put the slimeball down. That is the smart thing to do. Too bad Martin didn't have a chance to do so.

How very civilized of you.

Civilized is hurting Z in such a way that only Z is injured.

 

[Noztradamus]

~~~

It's cute to talk about what you would have done, if you were Martin. The thing is, you really don't know what you would have done. I certainly don't. I may have run home. I may have stopped running once I went around the corner. I may have put my hands up, or I may have punched Zimmerman. You simply can't know how you would respond to a threat, because you would respond differently simply depending on what state of mind you were on.

However, I do know exactly what I would do if I were driving my car, and saw someone walking down the street. I would simply keep driving. I certainly would *not* call the cops, and then jump out of my car and chase the person.

Pedestrians: The Most Dangerous Game.

 

[quadraginta]

No (not unless you are in a lawless hellhole). You shouldn't be resorting to physical violence without more proof than "he put his hand in his pocket". Jesus.

Or maybe are a police officer in the U.S., in which case "He looked like he was going for a weapon." which turned out to be a wallet or something can be carte blanc to gun them down, sometimes without repercussions.

I think this sort of justification is rather more common, even outside of "lawless hellholes", than you are trying to suggest. That's not to say it always works, but it isn't all that unheard of.

 

[bookworm]

ETA: Post deleted. Forget it.

 

[This is The End]

You shouldn't be resorting to physical violence without more proof than "he put his hand in his pocket".

Not another one...

I'm not going to go through all of this again. I already did it twice in the last few dozen posts. There was much more to it than just "he put his hand in his pocket". Please find and read those posts.

This repetition of "he just went for his pocket" and leaving out all the other details and the context seems to be disingenuous. (See the "without more proof than" in the above quote.)

Also, aside from that, that discussion is in reference to Z's own story! Again, this is the shooter's story. The true story could be different.

 

[Mumbles]

No (not unless you are in a lawless hellhole). You shouldn't be resorting to physical violence without more proof than "he put his hand in his pocket". Jesus.

No, that is not the argument, as has been pointed out repeatedly by OnlyTellsTruth. Frankly, this isn't any better than the complaint that we think the Martin Attacked Simmerman,, because Zimmerman got out of his car.

In truth, in Zimmerman's own words, had no reason to find MRtin suspicious, and yet, he called the cops, and then pursued Martin both in car, and then on foot.

This, alone, is a threat.

And then, when Martin magically appeared and asked Zimmerman if he had a problem, Zimmerman, said no, and t*then* reached into his pocket. And in response to an unknown person pursuing him and sticking his hands n his pockets, Martin hit him.

As far as I care, Martin was absolutely in the right in this. And I find it telling that the pro-Zimmerman crowd refuses to account for Zimmerman's actions, both as recorded on his police call, and according to his own after-the-fact statements. If you really thught that creeping after someone in your car, and then jumping out of your car to chase after someone who was just looking around while walking home, was completely non cent, then you'd make that case. But since you insist on avoiding that discussion, I assume that you can't justify it.

And the reason is obvious. Pursuing someone is a plainly aggressive action. Walking home from the store, wearing warm clothing in February in the northern hemisphere is not. Covering your head is also not aggressive. I have no idea why someone would chose to defend a fool like Zimmerman, and I don't really care. It's pretty clear that he was the instigator, and this deserves no cover of self-defense.

 

[Dan O.]

When a fat little pervert chases you down and starts loud-talking you like a gang banger, then puts his hand in his pocket, it is probably not a good idea to wait and see whether he takes out a gun or a bag of Skittles. Put the slimeball down. That is the smart thing to do. Too bad Martin didn't have a chance to do so.

Except it appears that is exactly what Martin did. He put the slimeball down then sat on the squirming worm stradling his waist and preventing access to those pockets with his legs until help arrived. Zimmerman could do nothing except scream until Martin chose to get off when he thought the presence of a witness would protect him.

There has been no evidence of any further assault by Martin on Zimmerman. No fingerprint or DNA on the gun to suggest that Martin was fighting for control of the gun. No brushing on Zimmerman's face suggesting a continued fist assault. No blood on Martin's hands suggesting an attempt to smother. All there is evidence of is an immediate application of force to prevent the production of a weapon and the minimum necessary force to control the situation until help arrived.

I hope for this case to be resolved by finding George guilty of murder so that the next neighborhood watch ******* knows they need to stay in their truck and let the police do their job. Failing that, and given that this is Florida the possibility is significant, I hope that the next kid that finds themself in a similar situation learns the lesson that force less than deadly force cannot protect their life when there are no social constraints to protect them from retaliation.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No, that is not the argument, as has been pointed out repeatedly by OnlyTellsTruth. Frankly, this isn't any better than the complaint that we think the Martin Attacked Simmerman,, because Zimmerman got out of his car.

In truth, in Zimmerman's own words, had no reason to find MRtin suspicious,

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something.
It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
...he was just staring ...looking at all the houses.

http://blog.ctnews.com/crimewatch/2011/12/21/know-how-to-report-suspicious-activities/

For years one of the cornerstones of Neighborhood Watch has been the reporting of suspicious activities and individuals to the police....
What exactly is a “suspicious activity”?
A stranger loitering in your neighborhood or a vehicle cruising the streets repeatedly; someone peering into cars or windows

http://www.google.com/search?q=neighborhood+watch+report+suspicious+activities
Feel free to find numerous references admonishing you to call the authorities for suspicious activities like loitering.

In truth, GZ found TM suspicious, described the suspicious activities, and reported TM just like all the NW guidelines say to do.

and yet, he called the cops, and then pursued Martin both in car, and then on foot.
This, alone, is a threat.

And then, when Martin magically appeared and asked Zimmerman if he had a problem, Zimmerman, said no, and t*then* reached into his pocket. And in response to an unknown person pursuing him and sticking his hands n his pockets, Martin hit him.

Which is assault, AFAIK.

As far as I care, Martin was absolutely in the right in this. And I find it telling that the pro-Zimmerman crowd refuses to account for Zimmerman's actions, both as recorded on his police call, and according to his own after-the-fact statements. If you really thught that creeping after someone in your car, and then jumping out of your car to chase after someone who was just looking around while walking home, was completely non cent, then you'd make that case. But since you insist on avoiding that discussion, I assume that you can't justify it.

What thread have you been reading where people are avoiding that discussion ?

And the reason is obvious. Pursuing someone is a plainly aggressive action. Walking home from the store, wearing warm clothing in February in the northern hemisphere is not. Covering your head is also not aggressive.

No, it's stopping your retuen home to confront someone instead of continuing home is aggressive.
Hitting someone who hasn't touched you or threatened you is aggressive.

I have no idea why someone would chose to defend a fool like Zimmerman, and I don't really care.

So you admit you aren't interested in a discussion.

It's pretty clear that he was the instigator, and this deserves no cover of self-defense.

 

[Bob001]

More importantly, he was reaching into his pocket while acting like a gang banger defending turf.

I continue to wonder whether this tragedy would have occurred if GZ had just been wearing, say, an orange vest and cap clearly labeled "Neighborhood Watch." GZ and TM might still have exchanged words, but it would probably have been along the lines of "Hey! What'chu doin' here?" "I'm stayin' with my Dad." "Oh, OK." Hard to believe anybody would have died. Somebody who's acting like a cop should be wearing a uniform.

 

[johnny karate]

For years one of the cornerstones of Neighborhood Watch has been the reporting of suspicious activities and individuals to the police....
What exactly is a “suspicious activity”?
A stranger loitering in your neighborhood or a vehicle cruising the streets repeatedly; someone peering into cars or windows

http://www.google.com/search?q=neighborhood+watch+report+suspicious+activities
Feel free to find numerous references admonishing you to call the authorities for suspicious activities like loitering.

In truth, GZ found TM suspicious, described the suspicious activities, and reported TM just like all the NW guidelines say to do.

So Zimmerman was dutifully following the guidelines of the neighborhood watch right up until he wasn't. Then he was merely acting as a concerned citizen. Amazing how he can switch back and forth depending on whichever serves his story better in that moment.

No, it's stopping your retuen home to confront someone instead of continuing home is aggressive.

Evidence that Martin stopped his return home to confront Martin?

Hitting someone who hasn't touched you or threatened you is aggressive.

Evidence that Zimmerman didn't touch or threaten Martin?

 

[Giz]

I continue to wonder whether this tragedy would have occurred if GZ had just been wearing, say, an orange vest and cap clearly labeled "Neighborhood Watch." GZ and TM might still have exchanged words, but it would probably have been along the lines of "Hey! What'chu doin' here?" "I'm stayin' with my Dad." "Oh, OK." Hard to believe anybody would have died. Somebody who's acting like a cop should be wearing a uniform.

But GZ wasn't doing a scheduled NW patrol. He was on a trip to/from the store when he saw someone "acting suspiciously" and, as per NW guidelines, called it in. He'd called in suspicious behavior a bunch of times (he has a track record of calling the police to investigate suspects and no record of him ever going vigilante on them).

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So Zimmerman was dutifully following the guidelines of the neighborhood watch right up until he wasn't. Then he was merely acting as a concerned citizen. Amazing how he can switch back and forth depending on whichever serves his story better in that moment.

I didn't say he was explicitly following watch guidelines, I said his actions were in accordance with watch guidelines. And that TM was acting suspiciously, according to NW and other reasonable definitions.

Evidence that Martin stopped his return home to confront Martin?

GZ statements, and a timeline that demonstrates he had more than enough time to make it 70 more yards to 'home'.

Evidence that Zimmerman didn't touch or threaten Martin?

GZ statements, DeeDee statements, and lack of evidence that GZ did those things.

 

[johnny karate]

But GZ wasn't doing a scheduled NW patrol. He was on a trip to/from the store when he saw someone "acting suspiciously" and, as per NW guidelines, called it in. He'd called in suspicious behavior a bunch of times (he has a track record of calling the police to investigate suspects and no record of him ever going vigilante on them).

But he did have a record of expressing dissatisfaction with police response, and we know he got out of his car to follow Martin.

"These ******** always get away."

Everyone has their breaking point.

 

[Giz]

But he did have a record of expressing dissatisfaction with police response, and we know he got out of his car to follow Martin.

"These ******** always get away."

Everyone has their breaking point.

So your view is that everyone was behaving atypically that night?

The neighborhood watch guy decides to go all vigilante and manhandle/threaten the suspect (while still on the phone with the police dispatcher!)

The teen (known for suspensions, stolen jewelery, burglary tools, starting fights) couldn't have possibly been anything less than angelic?

Not that it couldn't have gone down that way... but good luck proving anything beyond reasonable doubt.


(FWIW - I don't think it can be "proved" either way. Anyone in this thread who is 100% sure that "their side" is right isn't being remotely skeptical. And that will be the state's big problem... not showing "could he hypothetically be a murderer", but proving that "he is, beyond reasonable doubt, a murderer ").

 

[Mumbles]

So your view is that everyone was behaving atypically that night?

The neighborhood watch guy decides to go all vigilante and manhandle/threaten the suspect (while still on the phone with the police dispatcher!)

The teen (known for suspensions, stolen jewelery, burglary tools, starting fights) couldn't have possibly been anything less than angelic?

Has anyone actually found any evidence that Martin was

a) in possession of stolen jewelry, or

b) known for starting fights?

The stolen items thing, last I heard, was unconfirmed, and the part about starting fights a complete fantasy pushed by worthless websites like Daily Caller.

And in any event, it's still Zimmerman's own police recording where he notes that Martin was running from him, and immediately exits his car to follow him, and then refuses to return to his car to meet with police. The fact that he did not do so on previous occasions doesn't mean much in this case. And no, being on the phone with police is no guarantee that a person isn't doing something idiotic - feel free to google Raul Rodriguez or Jean Kalonji for recent counterexamples. It's pretty clear, at this point, that Zimmerman thought he was tracking a suspicious, and potentially dangerous, person, when in reality he was harrassing a teen who was walking home from the store. There's no reason to act surprised that he made further mistakes.

 

[johnny karate]

And that TM was acting suspiciously, according to NW and other reasonable definitions.

He was? How could you possibly know that?

GZ statements, and a timeline that demonstrates he had more than enough time to make it 70 more yards to 'home'.

So the word of man trying to beat a murder charge (who has already engaged in one deception against the court), and your own speculation on how long it should take someone to get home. Convincing stuff.

GZ statements

See above. I enjoy how you are convinced by the same level of evidence that people who claim to have seen Bigfoot use to prove Bigfoot exists.

DeeDee statements

What part of DeeDee's statement was it that she said Martin stopped his return home to confront Zimmerman?

And do you find all of DeeDee's statement credible, or just the parts that you imagine exonerate Zimmerman?

and lack of evidence that GZ did those things.

Zimmerman's behavior in his own version of events could be interpreted as threatening. You just refuse to acknowledge that.

 

[johnny karate]

So your view is that everyone was behaving atypically that night?

No...

The neighborhood watch guy decides to go all vigilante and manhandle/threaten the suspect (while still on the phone with the police dispatcher!)

Zimmerman hung up the phone before his encounter with Martin, so I'm not too sure what you're talking about.

As for him "go[ing] all vigilante", he was already in the process of going after someone he thought was a criminal. While armed. Smacks of vigilantism to me.

And since you're so big on judging people by their previous actions, I should remind you that Zimmerman has a history of violence. It's not a big stretch to think someone who once assaulted a police officer might also assault someone he thought was a criminal of some sort.

The teen (known for suspensions, stolen jewelery, burglary tools...

Has Zimmerman claimed Martin tried to burglarize him? If not, I'm not sure why that particular behavior is relevant.

...starting fights)

I think you're confused. Zimmerman is the one with the established history of violence, not Martin.

And by the way, Martin isn't being accused of merely starting a fight. He's being accused of attempted murder. And a rather savage attempt at that.

So you be sure to let me know what about Martin's history makes you think it wouldn't be atypical for him to set upon a total stranger and try to beat him to death.

...couldn't have possibly been anything less than angelic?

Who said anything about Martin being angelic? And why is that the standard you've chosen? Does it also apply to Zimmerman? If he's less than angelic, his he automatically guilty of murder?

Not that it couldn't have gone down that way... but good luck proving anything beyond reasonable doubt.

Actually, I'm not the prosecuting attorney, and no one in this thread is on the jury. So I'm not sure why you think that standard applies here.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Has anyone actually found any evidence that Martin was

a) in possession of stolen jewelry, or

b) known for starting fights?

The stolen items thing, last I heard, was unconfirmed,

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html
In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the ****.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.


So no, it was never confirmed as stolen. Perhaps it belonged to the mysterious deedee ?

and the part about starting fights a complete fantasy pushed by worthless websites like Daily Caller.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...t-they-cant-hide-it-forever-here-it-is-again/

I don't know about the fights. I think there were some fight videos, IDK whether TM was in them or not.

And in any event, it's still Zimmerman's own police recording where he notes that Martin was running from him,

GZ also notes that he lost TM. So you believe him when he says that, too, right ?

and immediately exits his car to follow him, and then refuses to return to his car to meet with police.

Where does he refuse to do that ?

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html
Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then? Zimmerman: Yeah that's fine. Dispatcher: Alright George, I'll let them know to meet you around there okay? Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at? Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that's no problem.

The fact that he did not do so on previous occasions doesn't mean much in this case. And no, being on the phone with police is no guarantee that a person isn't doing something idiotic - feel free to google Raul Rodriguez or Jean Kalonji for recent counterexamples. It's pretty clear, at this point, that Zimmerman thought he was tracking a suspicious, and potentially dangerous, person, when in reality he was harrassing a teen who was walking home from the store. There's no reason to act surprised that he made further mistakes.

And no reason to act surprised that a teen may have done something stupid, like stop heading for home and stop and turn around to confront the person following him....