What actually do JREF religious believers believe?

[zooterkin]

Tooth fairies and magical boys may live out there somewhere. But as they are a creation of human anthropocentric brain activity it would suggest that where they exist they are accompanied by human brains.

Wait, you're saying that just thinking about something like a tooth fairy can cause it to exist outside the brain?

 

[dafydd]

He is.

 

[dafydd]

A creator God/god is one potential cause of the existence we find ourselves in and is not in principle anthropocentric.

Yes it is, mankind invented gods.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Does this strike anyone else as just amazingly egotistical? The idea that you are so awesome the very fact that you think something means it has to exist in some form?

 

[dafydd]

Does this strike anyone else as just amazingly egotistical? The idea that you are so awesome the very fact that you think something means it has to exist in some form?

That's mysticism for you.

 

[punshhh]

Wait, you're saying that just thinking about something like a tooth fairy can cause it to exist outside the brain?

Not specifically, I'm not saying that it does in our world but I wouldn't rule it out elsewhere. That would be ridiculous as how could we know what happens elsewhere?

 

[punshhh]

Does this strike anyone else as just amazingly egotistical? The idea that you are so awesome the very fact that you think something means it has to exist in some form?

Are you describing God?

I'm trying to imagine an ego that big!

 

[pandamonium]

Not specifically, I'm not saying that it does in our world but I wouldn't rule it out elsewhere. That would be ridiculous as how could we know what happens elsewhere?

What's elsewhere? Places that we have no way to directly observe and which can not therefore directly interfere with our Universe? Sure, maybe the Tooth Fairy exists some place that doesn't exist in this Universe. But what does that matter to this Universe? I mean, there could be alternate dimensions in which I'm supreme overlord and ruler of all, and also am not quite so lumpy, but that does me a fat lot of good in this dimension. Plus the fact that I have no way to demonstrate the existence of these alternate universes. But I could assert their existence all day long if you want.

 

[punshhh]

I remember it as a combination of begging the question and special pleading.

That may be your interpretation.

Hey, I was right!

Explain? You don't think I would come to the table without having thought through all the permutations of the argument do you?

 

[punshhh]

What's elsewhere? Places that we have no way to directly observe and which can not therefore directly interfere with our Universe? Sure, maybe the Tooth Fairy exists some place that doesn't exist in this Universe. But what does that matter to this Universe? I mean, there could be alternate dimensions in which I'm supreme overlord and ruler of all, and also am not quite so lumpy, but that does me a fat lot of good in this dimension. Plus the fact that I have no way to demonstrate the existence of these alternate universes. But I could assert their existence all day long if you want.

There is a difference between accepting what is not known and asserting something about what is not known. Let me know when I do the later.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Are you describing God?

No I am not. I am describing you and your suggestion that fairies are likely to exist simply because we can form a mental image of them.

 

[punshhh]

No I am not. I am describing you and your suggestion that fairies are likely to exist simply because we can form a mental image of them.

I suggest you read it again.

 

[zooterkin]

Wait, you're saying that just thinking about something like a tooth fairy can cause it to exist outside the brain?

Not specifically, I'm not saying that it does in our world but I wouldn't rule it out elsewhere. That would be ridiculous as how could we know what happens elsewhere?

Let me remind you of what you said:

Tooth fairies and magical boys may live out there somewhere. But as they are a creation of human anthropocentric brain activity it would suggest that where they exist they are accompanied by human brains.

Where is this 'elsewhere' that has human brains?

You've made the assertion that just thinking about something can cause it to exist in reality. Please either retract it or explain what you mean.

 

[RoseMontague]

This is where we disagree. I think science will eventually prove there is a God. The wiki article on Hawking radiation is a good one and efforts to prove it are getting close. My personal opinion is that the more we find out about the universe the closer we get to finding God.

That would be the death of faith.

I think what would happen is that skeptics would turn into CTers, probably claim the scientists have been indoctrinated or something. Maybe the Pope put some magnets under their chairs.

God is somehow imbedded in the universe?

The universe is God's creation, not Herself. God can certainly interact with the universe, imo.

 

[RoseMontague]

What's elsewhere? Places that we have no way to directly observe and which can not therefore directly interfere with our Universe? Sure, maybe the Tooth Fairy exists some place that doesn't exist in this Universe. But what does that matter to this Universe? I mean, there could be alternate dimensions in which I'm supreme overlord and ruler of all, and also am not quite so lumpy, but that does me a fat lot of good in this dimension. Plus the fact that I have no way to demonstrate the existence of these alternate universes. But I could assert their existence all day long if you want.

Science tells us that certain things exist even before they are observed. It's like the double helix of DNA, scientists even knew what it looked like but only recently got a picture of it. Hawking radiation has not been observed, yet some scientists believe it is there because the universe does not seem to compute without it. Some scientists also believe God exists because it is the only way they see the universe as being possible.

Faith however, has been described as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The evidence of things not seen is the common ground with science , imo. To me, the things hoped for part is our desire to give some meaning to life, the universe, and everything.

 

[dafydd]

Not specifically, I'm not saying that it does in our world but I wouldn't rule it out elsewhere. That would be ridiculous as how could we know what happens elsewhere?

In another thread you suggested that there could be an infinite series of creator gods. That is a figment of your imagination. Merely thinking about them cannot conjure them into existence.

 

[dafydd]

Faith however, has been described as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The evidence of things not seen is the common ground with science , imo. To me, the things hoped for part is our desire to give some meaning to life, the universe, and everything.

You won't find any meaning in gods thought up by mankind.

 

[SusanB-M1]

Wait, you're saying that just thinking about something like a tooth fairy can cause it to exist outside the brain?

Well, it certainly happens in the Disc World!
(I'm (re-)reading Hogfather' at the moment.)

 

[punshhh]

Let me remind you of what you said:



Where is this 'elsewhere' that has human brains?

Who knows? In my use of elsewhere I am referring to what may exist beyond our known universe. I appreciate it was not clear, I am trying to keep it as simple as possible and avoid in depth explanations where they are not requested.

You've made the assertion that just thinking about something can cause it to exist in reality. Please either retract it or explain what you mean.

That was not my intention. In suggesting that tooth fairies may exist beyond our universe, I am considering that something approximating a tooth fairy might exist outside of a mind, independent of minds. Or possibly there are human like entities out there who have in some way generated tooth fairies outside of their minds.

My point is focussing on the issue that entities like tooth fairies and Harry Potter are intellectual abstractions of things humanity experience. As such they are a different category of things to things which exist or may exist outside of the human mind.

 

[punshhh]

In another thread you suggested that there could be an infinite series of creator gods. That is a figment of your imagination. Merely thinking about them cannot conjure them into existence.

You are mistaken, you will find that I was illustrating the absurdities that emerge when grappling intellectually with existence or the origin of our known universe.

Absurdities like an infinity in time or space.