John Edward - psychic or what?

[Joey McGee]

Hey, as Randi told me one time "Enjoy your delusions."

(I didn't enjoy them)

 

[Resume]

And the only way for him to remedy those moral failings of "arrogance and disrespect" is to change his beliefs, right? In other words, merely believing in something can make you a moral wrongdoer as a necessary consequence of that act of belief.

Remains to be seen. But it has been demonstrated that charlatans like cold readers exploit loss, grief, weakness and credulity for their own material benefit.

 

[Garrette]

And the only way for him to remedy those moral failings of "arrogance and disrespect" is to change his beliefs, right? In other words, merely believing in something can make you a moral wrongdoer as a necessary consequence of that act of belief.

Not inferrable from what I wrote, nor close to what I said or meant. Truethat gave a decent response. Start there then re-read what I actually said.

 

[truethat]

Most of the people on one side of my family don't use their first name. We are scots, and all the firstborn males are named a particular ancestral name. Second and third borns get named after other family members. None of them use it. They all either have a nickname or go by their middle name.

I told you I'm psychic!

 

[Robin1]

No, first up Robin is a woman. Second, Garrette didn't say anything about moral failings, Garrette stated that the behavior was arrogant and disrespectful. Coming to a site of skeptics and sharing a story that is so full of holes it gives a fishing net a run for its money, and then refusing to accept that we don't believe it's true. Dismissing people as blind instead of providing more details.

Ex. I think in this thread is the first time that we found out that one of the others in the group was Robin's mother. And that is a very important detail. Because if Robin's mother was there, it certainly demystifies the comments about the fingerprints. Reading body language and using details on a person is a warm reading, not a cold reading.

Actually mentioned my Mom was there in the comment section of my blog...which unfortunately just goes to show that people are not really "hearing" me at all. There are no other details I could provide you that would ever prove John is a fake OR prove he is real...if you don't think it is possible for John to have communicated with my Dad by now you never will. I believe I have sincerely tried to listen because I agree with all of you in that there are many ways fake mediums can attempt to trick people...I just don't agree that any of those methods were actually used by John in my reading. Therefore, I don't think the conclusion I've drawn based on my own experience and knowledge is arrogant or disrespectful to anyone who believes differently. For me, it simply represents the truth of what happened that night. I do know, however, that I have a fundamental mindset that is quite different than most of you...you are ALL about the science, the analysis, the proof and yes I agree THAT is very important. And for me ,first and foremost, ALL the analysis and evidence points in one direction...but to be able to truly embrace and accept the Truth that all the evidence has led me to, I do need more than just the science , I need faith... Impossible without it. Ironic, isn't it?

 

[truethat]

Ok so we've tried reading the blog, you know I did, so let's put out the details here.

Who went with you, you said your brother, your mother and who was the other person? (If you say Valerie Harper or the refrigerator sales man I am really gonna slap you)

You also ignored meg's excellent response.

Robin,

You and your brother have brought up Occam's razor a couple of times, so let's go with that.

You have also said that you've read all about cold reading while you were doing your "research" on different psychics. *In case you'd like a refresher course, here's a pretty easy to read pdf called Red Hot Cold Reading by *Herb Dewey and Thomas K Seville, Ph.D., written in the mid 1980s, coincidentally right about the time John Edward says he became convinced that he was psychic. *http://www.forum2.org/mellon/lj/Red Hot Cold Readings.pdf

So, here's my question.

If you listen to John Edward and you listen to a magician doing a cold reading gig, John Edward sounds a lot like a magician doing cold reading.

If you watch John Edward and you watch a magician doing a cold reading gig, John Edward looks a lot like a magician doing cold reading.

The kinds of words and images John Edward says he gets are the same kinds of word and images a magician doing cold reading says he gets.


John Edward's "hit" rate is about the same as a magician gets doing cold reading.

We know that cold reading exists.
We know that some people call themselves psychics who perform cold reading.


So, which is the more simple explanation for John Edward's "abilities"?


John Edward is a magician doing cold reading.

OR

John Edward actually really talks to dead people, but really talking to dead people coincidentally looks and sounds a lot like magicians doing cold reading.

The question I'm asking... you keep ignoring.

Let's say John Edward is an honest to god Psychic and he can very vaguely pick up details. Let's say he thinks he is talking to the dead. That's what he honestly believes.

But what evidence did he tell you that proved it was Salvatore? You bought the fridge, your brother had the Valerie Harper connection, Beaver tooth guy had the tooth on him.

These are all details in the "here and now."

How does this connect to the "other side?"

You aren't making that connection clear. If we, for the sake of argument, agree that John Edward is a psychic, how does that prove he's talking to the "other side."

Just give one example. Don't run away again.

 

[Resume]

I do need more than just the science , I need faith... Impossible without it. Ironic, isn't it?

It isn't ironic; of course you need more than science. Indeed, faith is essential to believe wherever and whenever objective evidence is lacking.

Unfortunately for your position, that faith is only validation for your experience. And weak at that.

Why would, or should, anyone abandon objectivity in favor of your claim?

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

I do need more than just the science , I need faith... Impossible without it. Ironic, isn't it?

Yeah, woo is science plus faith. It's super-science. Someone like Eienstein is "just" science. That's why his work was so feeble with nuclear bombs and all, whereas once you add woo - then you've really got something with awesome power like saying a relative has a "G" in their name.

 

[Garrette]

Actually mentioned my Mom was there in the comment section of my blog...which unfortunately just goes to show that people are not really "hearing" me at all. There are no other details I could provide you that would ever prove John is a fake OR prove he is real...if you don't think it is possible for John to have communicated with my Dad by now you never will. I believe I have sincerely tried to listen because I agree with all of you in that there are many ways fake mediums can attempt to trick people...I just don't agree that any of those methods were actually used by John in my reading. Therefore, I don't think the conclusion I've drawn based on my own experience and knowledge is arrogant or disrespectful to anyone who believes differently. For me, it simply represents the truth of what happened that night. I do know, however, that I have a fundamental mindset that is quite different than most of you...you are ALL about the science, the analysis, the proof and yes I agree THAT is very important. And for me ,first and foremost, ALL the analysis and evidence points in one direction...but to be able to truly embrace and accept the Truth that all the evidence has led me to, I do need more than just the science , I need faith... Impossible without it. Ironic, isn't it?

There is nothing ironic here. There is only avoidance.

You keep saying there is nothing you can say to convince us. How do you know when you refuse to actually say anything?

Discuss your claim. Don't just say: "I believe, and you should, too."

I will keep pointing it out: you bring up topics but shy away when you discover we know about them already, so of course we don't believe you. You have provided exactly nothing in the way of evidence and you run from talk of it.

 

[wardenclyffe]

Actually mentioned my Mom was there in the comment section of my blog...which unfortunately just goes to show that people are not really "hearing" me at all. There are no other details I could provide you that would ever prove John is a fake OR prove he is real...if you don't think it is possible for John to have communicated with my Dad by now you never will. I believe I have sincerely tried to listen because I agree with all of you in that there are many ways fake mediums can attempt to trick people...I just don't agree that any of those methods were actually used by John in my reading. Therefore, I don't think the conclusion I've drawn based on my own experience and knowledge is arrogant or disrespectful to anyone who believes differently. For me, it simply represents the truth of what happened that night. I do know, however, that I have a fundamental mindset that is quite different than most of you...you are ALL about the science, the analysis, the proof and yes I agree THAT is very important. And for me ,first and foremost, ALL the analysis and evidence points in one direction...but to be able to truly embrace and accept the Truth that all the evidence has led me to, I do need more than just the science , I need faith... Impossible without it. Ironic, isn't it?

Robin,

I can be convinced. However here's my question for you. You said that you've been to X number of mediums before (you can fill in the number). Some of them are very financially successful and famous. It seems, though, that you found all of them wanting until this recent reading by John Edward. Fair enough. You've been around the block on this subject. You know a fake when you see it. So, the question is why did you keep going back? Why did you keep trying? I think most of us (and I think most people in general) would have given up after the third or fourth failure in person, especially if we'd done research as you have that shows how many fakes there are and the methods they use. What made you believe that Lucy would not pull the football away on the next psychic reading or the next or the one after that? And if you go often enough, you are bound to run into someone who has done the research or simply gotten a lucky break.

I remember James Randi once told a story about how he* got an incredible hit while he was doing a "reading" once. It's because he just happened to be in a bathroom stall using it for its designed purpose, when he overheard other people in the bathroom having a revealing conversation. They were absolutely amazed and dumbfounded when they got their reading. Perhaps that was their first time or perhaps they had also been searching for a real medium.

So, why keep trying and why this and not bigfoot or aura-reading or any number of other things that can disappoint so often, but every now and then, maybe there's a hit.

At the beginning of this post, I said that I could be convinced. I know that John Edward is rich and doesn't need the money (although he charges for readings). I'd be awfully impressed if he passed Randi's Million Dollar Challenge or any of the other paranormal challenges offered around the world and he gave the money to charity. That would go a long way toward convincing me.

Thanks,
Ward

*I think it was a story told by Randi, but it's possible that it was told by him about another mentalist that he knew and it was not about himself. The memory fails.

 

[Robin1]

Ok so we've tried reading the blog, you know I did, so let's put out the details here.

Who went with you, you said your brother, your mother and who was the other person? (If you say Valerie Harper or the refrigerator sales man I am really gonna slap you)

You also ignored meg's excellent response.






The question I'm asking... you keep ignoring.

Let's say John Edward is an honest to god Psychic and he can very vaguely pick up details. Let's say he thinks he is talking to the dead. That's what he honestly believes.

But what evidence did he tell you that proved it was Salvatore? You bought the fridge, your brother had the Valerie Harper connection, Beaver tooth guy had the tooth on him.

These are all details in the "here and now."

How does this connect to the "other side?"

You aren't making that connection clear. If we, for the sake of argument, agree that John Edward is a psychic, how does that prove he's talking to the "other side."

Just give one example. Don't run away again.

truethat...I want to address that which is most important first...the joke...That whole "if you say Valerie Harper or the refrigerator salesman I am really gonna slap you" ...well, that was hysterical! : )
Ok people with me that night....my brother, my Mom, and my friend Pam.
As far as your other question...assuming as you say in your scenario that John is a psychic and perhaps can read minds or pick up on things...how do I know he wasn't just "reading our minds" vs. communicating with our Dad? Well because my new refrigerator was the furthest thing from my mind that night. And my brother obviously wasn't thinking about Valerie Harper thus his insisting to John he had no connection to her. So for me to believe John was psychic I would also have to believe he can pick up on things that we're not even thinking about...and reach into the recesses of our brains for information. THAT seems crazy : ) The more sane solution obviously is that John is communicating with my deceased father : )
Seriously, I do believe our loved ones are well and able to see what is going on in our lives. Now how is my Dad going to prove that to me through John Edward? It HAS to be something there is NO way John could know and it has to be specific to me, and no generalities thank you. So John telling me about my 3 boys , feral cats, where I live, my job, where i went to school, rabies etc. would prove nothing to me because I KNOW that is all information easily gleaned from the Internet. John telling me my Dad is Ok and loves us and misses us would prove NOTHING to me as well. There is no better way for my Dad to prove he is well and sees what is going on in our lives than by telling us something specifically that is going on in our lives...something relatively unusual...something exactly like... I just bought a new refrigerator. And to Doug... who had just a few hours before been reading about Valerie Harper (and like he said hadn't given her a conscious thought in years) and then called his friend to discuss going to see her show. THAT is the PROOF that my Dad is well and yes can see what is going on in the here and now because he relayed to John what is going on in the here and now! Refrigerator statement made directly to me to validate that the reading was for me. Valerie Harper statement made directly to my brother. Without those 2 validations the hard "G" sounding name and the problem with his brain and stomach and the ST sound etc..would not have convinced me John is real. However, WITH the refrigerator and the Valerie Harper connection the rest of what John said has more credence.

 

[truethat]

How is that proof that it was Salvatore? It could be a demon haunting you if you're going to open up possibilities. It could be a guardian angel, and alien spy that is sending mind rays to John Edwards.

What utterly convinced you it was Salvatore and no one else?

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Total household appliance sales are between 45 million and 55 million a year, rough order of magnitude. New appliances only. There are about twice as many households. If you add in used appliances then the majority of households are likely to have acquired a "new" appliance recently.

If my Dad wants to communicate with me then he doesn't need a charletan to communicate through, and to tell me I recently bought an appliance.

 

[AdMan]

Now how is my Dad going to prove that to me through John Edward? It HAS to be something there is NO way John could know and it has to be specific to me, and no generalities thank you. So John telling me about my 3 boys , feral cats, where I live, my job, where i went to school, rabies etc. would prove nothing to me because I KNOW that is all information easily gleaned from the Internet. John telling me my Dad is Ok and loves us and misses us would prove NOTHING to me as well. There is no better way for my Dad to prove he is well and sees what is going on in our lives than by telling us something specifically that is going on in our lives...something relatively unusual...something exactly like... I just bought a new refrigerator.

How does this make any sense? Rather than telling you about something deeply personal, perhaps from your childhood, that you and your dad shared and that nobody else could possibly know about, he tells you you just bought a new refrigerator? And this is convincing?

If true, it's sad that the souls of the departed concern themselves with such mundane trivialities.

 

[Robin1]

How is that proof that it was Salvatore? It could be a demon haunting you if you're going to open up possibilities. It could be a guardian angel, and alien spy that is sending mind rays to John Edwards.

What utterly convinced you it was Salvatore and no one else?

truethat...Because I believe in the power of the Rosary and protection prayers for ex. the prayer to St Michael the Archangel. And after all that, the "convincer" for me...I trust my gut. And after all is said and done and of course analyzed...to "death"...it all rests upon trusting your gut...the proverbial leap of faith..and I do understand why that is not a viable option for some. But for me...well, it fits. And by the way, I will never understand how my Nana's "slippers" validation is so easily dismissed by you...but then again i don't think most people are willing to take that "leap." And i don't think you need to...many paths...And I for one am happy that for a brief moment in time ours have crossed. All the best on your journey...

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

There is no better way for my Dad to prove he is well and sees what is going on in our lives than by telling us something specifically that is going on in our lives...something relatively unusual...something exactly like... I just bought a new refrigerator.

Yet he gets his own name wrong...

Refrigerator statement made directly to me to validate that the reading was for me.

It wasn't a statement, it was a question. Edward didn't say "your father says that you've just bought a new fridge", he asked you whether you had and seemed surprised when you said yes.

Look at how your story has changed to make Edward seem more perceptive than he was. Now ask yourself why you're not actually telling the truth about this event. I don't think you're being deliberately deceitful, I think you don't even notice when you change the details like this. I think you're lying to yourself. Perhaps you should ask yourself what this tells you about your account.

Without those 2 validations the hard "G" sounding name and the problem with his brain and stomach and the ST sound etc..would not have convinced me John is real.

Your father doesn't have an "ST" sound in his name. Again, what does that tell you about how you're processing this information?

 

[Pixel42]

I can't change your mind, and you can't change mine

We've told you exactly what it would take to change our minds. The evidence we require is the minimum it should take to convince anyone, including you, that Edward is a genuine medium. Unfortunately the standard of evidence you've decided is enough to convince you is so low that a mildly talented and/or lucky magician could (and did) reach it. Why you are insisting on setting your standard of evidence so low is a question only you can answer, but whilst you continue to do so you're correct in saying that no-one can ever change your mind.

 

[Robin1]

We've told you exactly what it would take to change our minds. The evidence we require is the minimum it should take to convince anyone, including you, that Edward is a genuine medium. Unfortunately the standard of evidence you've decided is enough to convince you is so low that a mildly talented and/or lucky magician could (and did) reach it. Why you are insisting on setting your standard of evidence so low is a question only you can answer, but whilst you continue to do so you're correct in saying that no-one can ever change your mind.

Pixel42.., You're right!! My standard of evidence is " So low that a mildly talented and/or lucky magician could (and did) reach it." Which is exactly the reason that right now you are going to tell me exactly what I purchased in the last 2 weeks that was a "major" purchase on my credit card as well as what my brother Doug was reading about a mere few hours ago that he also felt the need to call and talk to his friend about? I'll be waiting right here for your minimal proof of evidence. Really, Pixel42 , really?

 

[AdMan]

Pixel42.., You're right!! My standard of evidence is " So low that a mildly talented and/or lucky magician could (and did) reach it." Which is exactly the reason that right now you are going to tell me exactly what I purchased in the last 2 weeks that was a "major" purchase on my credit card as well as what my brother Doug was reading about a mere few hours ago that he also felt the need to call and talk to his friend about? I'll be waiting right here for your minimal proof of evidence. Really, Pixel42 , really?

Robin, it was just an apparently successful cold reading session from a half-competent fake psychic, who also may have used some other methods to gather other information. Why, you've shown you can be convinced by cold readings even in this very thread!

You want another reading like that, I'm sure it can be arranged. It's still fake.

Oh, and remember--the burden of proof is on those making extraordinary claims--in this case, you. Not on someone saying it's all obviously fake.

 

[Pixel42]

Pixel42.., You're right!! My standard of evidence is " So low that a mildly talented and/or lucky magician could (and did) reach it." Which is exactly the reason that right now you are going to tell me exactly what I purchased in the last 2 weeks that was a "major" purchase on my credit card as well as what my brother Doug was reading about a mere few hours ago that he also felt the need to call and talk to his friend about? I'll be waiting right here for your minimal proof of evidence. Really, Pixel42 , really?

Another poster here already made a few intelligent guesses which you acknowledged were hits. If you go to enough mediums (and you clearly went to quite a few) one is bound to make a few more lucky guesses than the rest. It isn't even necessary to assume hot reading, or that you're remembering the hits as more impressive than they actually were, to account for your experience.

I say again: the only way to find out if Edward is genuine is to test him under conditions where all possible alternative explanations of his perceived accuracy are carefully excluded. That's the "minimum standard of evidence" required for this sort of claim. Anyone who is satisifed with anything less than that, let alone with a single anecdote, simply hasn't understood the lengths it is necessary to go to to compensate for the cognitive biases we all have. Until Edward consents to such a test all we have to go on is the recordings of his readings, and they strongly indicate that he is a bog standard cold reader.