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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Imagine you are a Palestinian receiving an order from your occupation siege-masters to evacuate or die.

Why does anyone have to imagine that? I can't imagine it because I do not live in that area. I have zero idea what it would be like. I can say that the IDF treats the inhabitants of Gaza far more humanely than the Russians treated the citizens of Grozny.

But without context, you can emotionally appeal any argument.

It's historically inaccurate and a distraction from Israel's massively disproportionate violence.

How is it historically inaccurate? As the weapons developed, the IDF implemented them.

Blah, blah, blah, we just can't help doing things that kill civilians.

You have zero compassion for civilians on the Israeli side. You should probably drop the act.

It's not clear that bombarding a poorly-armed prison camp can really be called a war.

Armed conflict. You are being purposefully difficult.

My hypothesis is that the moral outrage about targeting civilians is a irrelevant charade that works to distract from the reality of the situation by demonizing armed resistance to Israel and removing it from its military, colonial context.

Your hypothesis is unsubstantiated.

If the positions were reversed and it was Israeli who'd been forced to live for decades under siege in ever-shrinking enclaves under the boot of a massively armed, aggressive occupier, it is very likely that Israel would revert to its former terrorist tactics in order to try and survive and maintain their dignity.

You keep going on and on about Israel's 'former terrorist tactics'. You have ignored my posts because you do not wish to address the fact that your evil empire in its past worked with the British to marginalize, arrest, and even assassinate members of the Irgun who were the equivalent of modern day insurgencies. If you refuse to address this, please list these "tactics" that Israel employed so we can actually have a discussion.

Besides, by your own arguments, Israel was outmatched on all fronts during their War of Independence, out manned and out gunned. Would you be willing to admit these "terrorist tactics" were thus morally employed?
 
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The end result of all the above is a terrorized civilian population - welcome to collective punishment.

No it's not. The fact that you are oblivious to this should be a red flag and you should start investigating why you have this warped view. You should also ask yourself how you only have issue with the side that takes these enormous and costly steps but never once raise issue with those who take the steps to intentionally terrorize as many civilians as possible while instigating collective punishment.

Your inability to see the irony is sad.
 
It means what it says - that when a weapon goes astray, whoever fired it is 100% responsible for the resulting carnage.
And the ones you imply don't take responsibility actually do. And they launch investigations as to the causes of the incident and work on ways to reducing them. However no system is without error. When you make mistakes at work, would it be fair for us to claim they were all intentional and due to you being evil?


Is it so pure to use them on a population that you have forced to live in a slum for decades so that you can have the land they used to live on?

You're talking about Hamas then. No it's not pure when Hamas uses weapons on its own population and forces them to live in a slum for decades.

And if you're talking about Israel it's a moot point since none of your claim is true. Lying is not going to help you in this argument as we require actual facts and not things you make up.

The whole "targeting civilians" Spiel (ignoring the fact Israel that killed far more civilians) is all about proving the moral superiority of Israel naked, colonialist aggression. When the founders of Israel didn't have the advantage of high-tech weaponry, they also used crude, terrorist tactics.

I believe you're mistaking lies for facts. Facts are true, lies are not. Your claims are not facts, they're actually lies. I say lies because you already know they are not true and make them anyways and intentionally while knowing they are untrue.

Israel has not killed more civilians, Hamas has. You already know this. What you mean is that more Palestinians have died than Israelis. And this thread has already well covered the reason why. The whole reason why there is disagreement between everyone else here and you is because you don't use facts and others do. It's an argument between your fantasies and our reality. If anything you said were actually true, then everyone here would be in agrement with you. But since the claims you make are completely made up, we can't agree with you.
 
No it's not. The fact that you are oblivious to this should be a red flag and you should start investigating why you have this warped view. You should also ask yourself how you only have issue with the side that takes these enormous and costly steps but never once raise issue with those who take the steps to intentionally terrorize as many civilians as possible while instigating collective punishment.

Your inability to see the irony is sad.

Sorry for your emotional distress but it's not about me (hilited) or my perceptions.

Threatening entire populations with bombing while ordering them to evacuate (where to, exactly?) or die evokes terror in the target population.

A remnant of human empathy is all one would need to understand this.


And the ones you imply don't take responsibility actually do. And they launch investigations as to the causes of the incident and work on ways to reducing them. However no system is without error. When you make mistakes at work, would it be fair for us to claim they were all intentional and due to you being evil?

The decision to use violence for aggressive political ends in the first place, thus guaranteeing that civilians will die, is where one should look when interested in labeling behavior evil. War is evil.


You're talking about Hamas then. No it's not pure when Hamas uses weapons on its own population and forces them to live in a slum for decades.

A rather bizarre and childlike distortion of history and responsibility. How long do you think Hamas has had any control over where Palestinians are allowed to live?

And if you're talking about Israel it's a moot point since none of your claim is true. Lying is not going to help you in this argument as we require actual facts and not things you make up.

You still haven't explained why you chose you emphatically talk about Jews when I was talking about Israel. Nothing you have said changes my impression that it was a crude, random, unjustified attempt to play the antisemitism card.

I believe you're mistaking lies for facts. Facts are true, lies are not. Your claims are not facts, they're actually lies. I say lies because you already know they are not true and make them anyways and intentionally while knowing they are untrue.

Blah, blah blah!

Israel has not killed more civilians, Hamas has. You already know this.

Ha ha! That's a ludicrous claim but if you can believe that forcing people to evacuate their homes under threat of death won't terrify them, I guess you could believe any old self-serving rubbish !

What you mean is that more Palestinians have died than Israelis. And this thread has already well covered the reason why. The whole reason why there is disagreement between everyone else here and you is because you don't use facts and others do. It's an argument between your fantasies and our reality. If anything you said were actually true, then everyone here would be in agrement with you. But since the claims you make are completely made up, we can't agree with you.

To paraphrase a common political truism: -"It's the occupation, stupid."

------------------------- ------------------------- -------------------------

Below is an extract from a moderated post . I have been advised that’s it’s okay to reproduce some of it here.

Below is my response to an attempt by another poster to impose a pretend "hypothesis" on me:

JihadJane said:
My hypothesis is that the moral outrage about targeting civilians is an irrelevant charade that works to distract from the reality of the situation by demonizing armed resistance to Israel and removing it from its military, colonial context. If the positions were reversed and it was Israelis who'd been forced to live for decades, under siege, in ever-shrinking enclaves, under the boot of a massively armed, aggressive occupier, it is very likely that Israel would revert to its former terrorist tactics in order to try and survive and maintain its dignity under oppression.



The following is from an article that compares the international response to the allegedly threatened massacre of civilians in Benghazi (the pretext for the NATO invasion and destruction of Libya) to the threatened massacre of civilians in Gaza this month:


'Flatten All Of Gaza' - The 'Benghazi Moment' That Didn't Matter


Media Lens said:
'We Must Blow Gaza Back To The Middle Ages'

With the [urgency to come to the rescue of Benghazi in the face of an allegedly looming massacre and Israel's history of perpetrating massacres] in mind, consider that, on November 16, on the third day of Israel’s latest assault on Gaza, with at least 18 Palestinians already killed, the BBC reported:

‘Israel's aerial bombardment of Gaza has intensified after it authorised the call-up of 30,000 army reservists, amid reports of a possible ground offensive.’

Israel's cabinet quickly approved the activation of 75,000 reservists, as well as hundreds of Merkava main battle tanks, armoured bulldozers and other assault vehicles, which were transported into position for attack.

Was a massacre looming? The Israeli deputy prime minister Eli Yishai appeared to promise as much on November 18:

‘We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water.’

A prominent front-page article in the Jerusalem Post by Gilad Sharon, son of the former Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, openly advocated mass killing:

‘We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

‘There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.’
 
Wow, Eli Yishai making a ridiculous statement. What's new. Is this reflected in Israel's policy in Gaza? Nope. Yishai made a statement that reflected the position of many Israelis who live within the scourge of Palestinian missile/mortar attacks.

But yeah, let's focus on Yishai's promotion of "all the infrastructure including roads and water" somehow equating to a massacre.

And why not add more unjustified whinging about occupation and collective punishment. Never gets old.
 
Threatening entire populations with bombing while ordering them to evacuate (where to, exactly?) or die evokes terror in the target population.

Perhaps we should write an open letter to the citizens of Gaza asking them to explain how they feel about Israel giving advanced warning of attack? If we don't bother to ask, then we are just ventriloquizing our own positions through the Palestinians.

A remnant of human empathy is all one would need to understand this.

And a remnant of human logic would conclude that it is not terrorism to give advanced warning to a targeted area so that causalities can be minimized.

The decision to use violence for aggressive political ends in the first place, thus guaranteeing that civilians will die, is where one should look when interested in labeling behavior evil.

Sure is.

Would you be willing to condemn Hamas now, since they use violence to achieve political goals?

In before my posts go ignored :(
 
No, because HAMAS doesn't terrorize the Israeli civilian population by warning them before striking them with suicide bombings or rocketry, and thus don't give them horrible dilemmas of Evacuating or Dying before their houses are smashed to bits. Also remember that they are just Defending Their Country, so all is well:).
 
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2638950b67cbe71d36.jpg


This is 11-year-old Hussam from the city of Rafah in Gaza standing in the rubble of his bombed-out home. The children of Gaza have now to cope with the devastation & terror they have just lived through, seeing neighbors, school mates, family members die, seeing their homes demolished, at least 136 schools & kindergartens damaged or destroyed. They are left without sufficient water, inadequate sanitation, & without necessary health & trauma care.
 
No, because HAMAS doesn't terrorize the Israeli civilian population by warning them before striking them with suicide bombings or rocketry, and thus don't give them horrible dilemmas of Evacuating or Dying before their houses are smashed to bits. Also remember that they are just Defending Their Country, so all is well:).

:s2:
 
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/2638950b67cbe71d36.jpg[/qimg]

This is 11-year-old Hussam from the city of Rafah in Gaza standing in the rubble of his bombed-out home. The children of Gaza have now to cope with the devastation & terror they have just lived through, seeing neighbors, school mates, family members die, seeing their homes demolished, at least 136 schools & kindergartens damaged or destroyed. They are left without sufficient water, inadequate sanitation, & without necessary health & trauma care.


This 8-month-old baby, together with 3 other children were injured in the Hamas terror attack using rockets against civilian areas in the city of Kiryat Malachi in Israel. These children have to cope with weekly rocket attacks targeted against residential neighborhoods, seeing family members die, seeing their homes demolished and simultaneously and inexplicably being members of the most hated people in the world. They have to deal with neo-Nazis and terrorist sympathizers diminishing their plight, cheering on the terrorists who hide behind their own people in order to foster further hatred towards Israel.
 

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[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/2638950b67cbe71d36.jpg[/qimg]

This is 11-year-old Hussam from the city of Rafah in Gaza standing in the rubble of his bombed-out home. The children of Gaza have now to cope with the devastation & terror they have just lived through, seeing neighbors, school mates, family members die, seeing their homes demolished, at least 136 schools & kindergartens damaged or destroyed. They are left without sufficient water, inadequate sanitation, & without necessary health & trauma care.

Because those evil Jews just target people's houses for the hell of it and Hamas terrorists have never been known to photo random kids in front of random rubble and pass it on to duped idiots in the media.
 
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/2638950b67cbe71d36.jpg[/qimg]

This is 11-year-old Hussam from the city of Rafah in Gaza standing in the rubble of his bombed-out home. The children of Gaza have now to cope with the devastation & terror they have just lived through, seeing neighbors, school mates, family members die, seeing their homes demolished, at least 136 schools & kindergartens damaged or destroyed. They are left without sufficient water, inadequate sanitation, & without necessary health & trauma care.

The breeches of the Geneva Conventions by Hamas seem to be having grave consequences for the Palestinians.
 
This 8-month-old baby, together with 3 other children were injured in the Hamas terror attack using rockets against civilian areas in the city of Kiryat Malachi in Israel. These children have to cope with weekly rocket attacks targeted against residential neighborhoods, seeing family members die, seeing their homes demolished and simultaneously and inexplicably being members of the most hated people in the world. They have to deal with neo-Nazis and terrorist sympathizers diminishing their plight, cheering on the terrorists who hide behind their own people in order to foster further hatred towards Israel.

He deserved it.:boxedin:
 
Sorry for your emotional distress but it's not about me (hilited) or my perceptions.

When all you offer is your personal opinion and rhetoric then it's ONLY about you. You rarely ever offer anything other than empty bigoted rhetoric. You may try to present it as factual, but of course it's not.

Threatening entire populations with bombing while ordering them to evacuate (where to, exactly?) or die evokes terror in the target population.

They don't threaten them. They warn them about the targets in the nearby area. But funny how you seem to show no objection to Hamas intentionally storing those weapons in populated areas with the intent of getting people killed. It's warning people so they don't get hurt that bothers you, not tactics that kill people. Well, unless they're Jewish.

A remnant of human empathy is all one would need to understand this.

The only one here without empathy is you. One need only common sense and a willing ness to look at facts to understand the situation. It might also require listening as well.

The decision to use violence for aggressive political ends in the first place, thus guaranteeing that civilians will die, is where one should look when interested in labeling behavior evil. War is evil.

We all agree on this. That's why we and Israel have a problem with Hamas tactics. The difference between you and everyone else here is that you have double standards. You have no complaints against Hamas using human shields and killing their own people while launching attacks on innocent civilians. But you most certainly have a problem with those who try to minimize those attacks while at the same time doing everything humanly possibly to minimize deaths.


A rather bizarre and childlike distortion of history and responsibility. How long do you think Hamas has had any control over where Palestinians are allowed to live?

It's call reality. You have no knowledge of history what so ever. And your question is irrelevant. It just shows us how warped your senses on the issue are. Hamas officially started around 1988. That's when they drew up their charter stating their goal which was literally to kill all of the Jews. But you raise no issue with them.

You still haven't explained why you chose you emphatically talk about Jews when I was talking about Israel. Nothing you have said changes my impression that it was a crude, random, unjustified attempt to play the antisemitism card.

Because unlike you, I am not trying to mislead people by trying to choose certain terms over others. We both know this is about Jews and Muslims, not Israelis. We have a government who's charter calls for the death of all Jews. They have children's TV shows which don't call for the death of Israeli's, they call for the death of Jews. We don't try to hide anti-semitism by pretending this is about Israel and nothing more. If Israel wasn't a Jewish country, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it.

And no one here expects you to change your mind. The reason we respond to you is for all the rational readers out there who may not be aware of these issues. The people out there who may have been mislead by people such as yourself who repeat these absurd lies and rhetoric and not realize it's completely untrue.


Ha ha! That's a ludicrous claim but if you can believe that forcing people to evacuate their homes under threat of death won't terrify them, I guess you could believe any old self-serving rubbish !

They aren't forced. In fact most intentionally stay to die as martyrs. Some are forced to stay by Hamas while the militants who launch the rockets hide in shelters leaving the civilians to die.

We can believe it because it's the only reasonable response. If someone is attacking you you protect yourself. If that person attacking you is using human shields, you try to warn those shields so they have a chance to not be the victim of Hamas's human shield tactic.

Ironically your desire is that the Jews just sit there and allow themselves to be killed by Hamas. Let's not pretend you have any concern for the lives of people. Your desire is simply that only the Jews are killed. You said no issue with the missiles being fired on the Jews, only that they strike back at the attackers.

To paraphrase a common political truism: -"It's the occupation, stupid."

There is no occupation. There is a land dispute. And certainly not one over Gaza. This is the most common lie that I have seen repeated by people such as yourself. You think one group has more right to the land than the other.


Below is my response to an attempt by another poster to impose a pretend "hypothesis" on me:

I don't care enough about people like you to read your other threads. Deleting...

Quoting someone's opinion is not useful. This is about policy. Would you like me to list some quotes from Palestinians about Jews? Who do you think will be able to come up with more quotes? No contest. The quotes along from Hamas run children's TV shows would amaze you.

But then you judge an entire group of people by the opinion of a single one. But at the same time while another group writes into their government charter a priority goal of exterminating another group of people, you have no problem.

Please stop kidding us that you have any empathy or any concern for other people's lives. You simply use the deaths of civilians for your own personal gain. You should be ashamed.

Also, for anyone who might try to point out that the Hamas Charter has been changed, when the current leader of Hamas was asked in 2009 if there was any plan to remove the parts about killing Jews, he said 'not a chance'.
 
This is 11-year-old Hussam from the city of Rafah in Gaza standing in the rubble of his bombed-out home. The children of Gaza have now to cope with the devastation & terror they have just lived through, seeing neighbors, school mates, family members die, seeing their homes demolished, at least 136 schools & kindergartens damaged or destroyed. They are left without sufficient water, inadequate sanitation, & without necessary health & trauma care.

And yet you have no problem with their schools being used to launch attacks on others. You don't mention anything about that being against Geneva conventions. You don't raise any issue when children in Israel are killed as a result of those rocket attacks carried out from school, churches and mosques. You take no issue with the fact that those locations are intentionally used so as to get children killed in order to get people like you to help support their cause and encourage them to continue using children as shields.

And you sit here expecting us to think you care about kids? You expect us to think you care about the lives of civilians while apologizing for a group that slaughters wedding parties for simply singing. You hate that a piece of equipment fails and kills a wedding party, but if a group slaughters the wedding party intentionally simply for singing, we will see no complaints from you.
 
Originally Posted by JihadJane
To paraphrase a common political truism: -"It's the occupation, stupid."

Occupation was good for them. A lot of Palestinians probably wish they were occupied again.
 
statements like this make me think that you must be an alter-ego caricature.

no one could actually believe this stuff....really.

That's because you've been brainwashed and everything you've been told is a crock.
 
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