General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Virus]

Leftists, Islamists and Nazis hold pro-Hamas rally in Toronto.

 

[angrysoba]

Yeah, I'd buy that. They just shoot at Israel in general. This doesn't mean they're deliberately targeting schools or civilians per se.

And actually, lots of times they can't even hit that.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...salem-bound-rocket-actually-landed-on-friday/

The missiles only make sense as a strategic deterrent (i.e. 'we have the capability to launch missiles and generally make a nuisance') (or a strategic provocation tool) (if you're a chicken or an egg). They have (as far as I can tell) next to zero tactical utility.

Not long ago, Hamas (or Islamic Jihad) fired a "heat-seeking missile" at a school bus. Or at least, that is how it was reported by Ha'aretz. It is also the case that schools have been hit by these missiles.

It has also been reported that some of these rocket barrages occur at school opening and closing times. I'm sure that some looking around will show this.

 

[angrysoba]

So stupid question, but why are people so mad at a possible one-state solution?

I remember reading a book by Ed Said when I was younger and thinking that he made a reasonably good case.

I think the answer is that a one-state solution would be perfect in an ideal world of universal tolerance and harmony. However, the point about establishing Israel was that a very long history of persecution had persuaded enough Jews that such a world was not going to come about in the near future and so, instead of being a dispersed minority having to hope for the good grace of the majority population, Israel was established as a place which would establish self-determination for Jews and a bolthole for other Jews from other countries when things got bad. It didn't take long, before a lot of Jews had to flee to Israel to escape persecution from Iraq, Syria, Libya and various other places, so in many ways it could be seen as vindicated. A lot of effort was also put into allowing Jews fleeing from the Soviet Union to go to Israel too.

Now, if Israel was not a predominantly Jewish state then this would not be a dependable solution for persecuted Jews abroad.

That is, as far as I understand the argument. There are some potential flaws such as if a nuclear-armed US elected some anti-semitic far right government, then Israel wouldn't be safe enough. But that's the theory, I think.

 

[bit_pattern]

.

2. I stand at least partially corrected. Oh, look at that, someone presents information and I accept it, and change my opinion accordingly. Would that you would only do the same.

And did it give you pause to consider just for a moment why Israel would assassinate a chief negotiator just days before he was due to deliver a cease fire agreement, knowing full well what the reaction would be? Do you not think that in this murky world of secret negotiations, assassinations and other cloak and dagger machinations that the timing is awfully suspect and that, maybe, just maybe, part of a wider agenda that doesn't fit with the PR facade that Israel is presenting to the world?

 

[Caper]

I've been reading about these warring groups for at least 15 years now.... and I still don;t know enough to take a side.... all I know is that it seems to be top story on the news every night for as long as I remember... and it seems the fighting just never stops.

 

[trustbutverify]

How endearing

I wonder if the "collaborators" got to pick their own lawyers before a fair and impartial court sentenced them to death. Oh, the humanity!

 

[bikerdruid]

Leftists, Islamists and Nazis hold pro-Hamas rally in Toronto.

ya ...nice source, dude.
this is the actual headline from your link."Muslim Savages, Leftards, Jewish Traitors, and Hungarian Fascist Rally for Hamas in Toronto."

 

[bit_pattern]

I wonder if the "collaborators" got to pick their own lawyers before a fair and impartial court sentenced them to death. Oh, the humanity!

Human rights group are still investigating the incidents, and Issam Yousef, director of the Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights said he was unable to confirm who caught or killed the men.
“Some of the names that have been mentioned to me tonight [as collaborators who were killed] had already been charged and sentenced to death. They were not just taken from the street today and shot,” Mr Yousef said.
“Collaborators are a very serious issue in Palestinian society. According to many hundreds of cases there have been extremely serious crimes committed by collaborators, especially in situations like this.”
But instead of summary executions, collaborators should be charged and dealt with in line with the law, with their legal rights protected, Mr Yousef said.
“It is the state of Israel targeting civilians and leaders of the resistance – they are doing it with drones but they are also using collaborators,” he said.
Indeed the Palestinian Centre for

http://m.theage.com.au/world/gazas-...e-dragged-through-streets-20121121-29or1.html

 

[John Mekki]

Conclusion: I do not know who is worse, the pro-Hamas group or the pro-Israel group.
At the end, they both claim to fight for the “right” side, but there are both on the “wrong” side.

Hamas is wrong not to accept the existence of Israel.
Israel is wrong on stealing Palestinian land.

Two bads do not make one good.
It is as simple as that.

 

[bit_pattern]

An interesting interview with the al-Nasser Salah al-Din Brigade

http://m.theage.com.au/data-point/h...ants-back-talks-for-truce-20121120-29o3b.html

A few excerpts:

One of the commanders from the al-Nasser Salah al-Din Brigades, Abu Mahmoud, emerged from hiding to speak to Fairfax Media about what it would take to stop the firing of rockets into southern Israel and in turn end Israel's six-day long bombardment of the tiny coastal strip.
The brigades claimed responsibility for the mortar attack on an Israeli army convoy on November 10, which, with the death three days earlier of a 13-year-old boy shot by Israeli soldiers in Gaza, was seen as one of the incidents that sparked the latest round of hostilities.

And:

It is clear the deaths of three generations of the Dallu family in an Israeli rocket strike on Sunday has hardened the resolve of the militant groups.
''Israel says they have attacked the resistance, that they have taught us very hard lessons, but the family killed yesterday - the Dallu family - were they fighters? We have more than 100 martyrs, 20 of them children - why doesn't Israel attack us instead?''

 

[Giz]

We have more than 100 martyrs, 20 of them children - why doesn't Israel attack us instead?''
[/I]

If they truly cared about the children, the brave terrorists would stop hiding in kindergartens - wouldn't they?

 

[WildCat]

This is an excellent post that raises some excellent points.

Therefore the "**** Israel" posters here will ignore it and the points made.

Man, am I psychic or what? I should apply for the $1 million.

 

[Virus]

Man, am I psychic or what? I should apply for the $1 million.

Have the "**** Israel" mob even admitted Hamas uses human shields? Or would that admission by too awkward for people who post pictures of terrorists with dead babies?

 

[John Mekki]

If they truly cared about the children, the brave terrorists would stop hiding in kindergartens - wouldn't they?

And I assume that the pro-Israeli group would consider this as an excuse to keep building settlements in the West Bank.

 

[Virus]

Yeah I'm sure the whole conflict is over some guy building a shed.

 

[Morrigan]

The "long range" rockets reaching Tel Aviv and Jerusalem have had the warhead removed completely!

Funny, this is an IDF claim, and the PRC is denying it. So I guess you do accept IDF propaganda when it suits your agenda.

 

[bit_pattern]

Funny, this is an IDF claim, and the PRC is denying it. So I guess you do accept IDF propaganda when it suits your agenda.

I source my information as widely as possible. What do you do?

 

[bit_pattern]

Yeah I'm sure the whole conflict is over some guy building a shed.

Lol

http://m.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_s.../0412-world-osettlements-harhoma_full_300.jpg

That's one hell if a shed!

 

[a_unique_person]

I paraphrased what you said, without changing the meaning. If you think you were misunderstood, please explain the following quote:

I stated that, the missiles fired by the Palestinians are not heavy grade weapons. I stated that Israel is by far the more powerful side, militarily. I made no statement at all apart from that.

Netanyahu, has claimed that "minimal" consequences of Israeli actions are acceptable. Which is a different topic, but not the one I was discussing.

 

[The Don]

We live in the here and now, and I see you recognize that focusing on the past is pointless. So which side is being more reasonable today? Israel proposes 2 states based largely on the 1967 border with mutual land swaps to even out the settlement issue but with Jerusalem still Israeli. Fatah is currently proposing nothing at all (and may or may not recognize Israel's right to exist, depending on the audience) that I have heard about, but they flatly reject Israel's proposal. Hamas has the same proposal they've always had - all of the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel for the Palestinians and death for all the Jews.

IMHO it's an easy choice.

So a 2 state solution where one state (the militarily more powerful one) gets to cherry-pick which parts of the West Bank forms part of Israel. I can appreciate how that sounds like a reasonable compromise to Israelis and I can also understand how it's not attractive to Palestinians.

From memory, one of the sticking points was that Palestinians would be reluctant to cede the Temple Mount to Israel (and I presume it would be unacceptable for Israelis for the Temple Mount to be ceded to a Palestinian state). I presume that this reluctance (from both sides) is based in part on religion.

I also recall that the Palestinian state wouldn't have control over its own borders or airspace. I can understand why Israelis would want that stipulation but then again, I can see why this would be unacceptable to Palestinians.


That said, Hamas' position is unacceptable. Israel has a right to exist.