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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Sure does! Especially when you take onto account that military service is compulsory there's as much chance of hitting the home of an IDF member by lobbing those fire crackers over the wall as there is an IDF not killing a kid when they drop bombs on the homes/families of alleged Hamas members :)
Do IDF personnel live at home when they've been mobilized? In case you're wondering, someone who may potentially be mobilized, who is not taking part in hostilities, is not a combatant and not liable to attack.
 
Because the Palestinians rejected their own state, they wanted the whole enchilada.

Oh and you do know that there were also plenty of Israelis who also rejected the partition such as Begin and the Lehi and the Stern Gang who also wanted the whole enchilada.
 
Okay, but what about the homes of the soldiers?

Cause from what I understand, that's what's being targeted in Gaza - the homes of Hamas fighters and their families.

Military leaders. Most of them store weapons caches in their homes so the only way to destroy those caches is to destroy the home. One of the reasons for there being so many casualties is because of the ammunitions in those homes exploding. Israeli IDF go to military bases and store their weapons there away from civilians so if there is a battle, civilians won't get in harms way. Hamas lives, works, and stores their munitions in the civilian population.

If the IDF soldiers operated out of their homes, you might have an argument, but they do not. Israel also phones ahead of time to warn the people to get out. If they were just going after the people there, calling them to give them warning would defeat the purpose.

For example in a CNN interview with someone from Gaza:
"The Israel Defense Forces called us. At first, we didn't believe them. Then they hit us with a small rocket on the roof. Ten minutes after that, they hit the house."

Again, it's the weapons they are after and those are stored in civilian housing or right next to it. The IDF doesn't do that.
 
Oh and you do know that there were also plenty of Israelis who also rejected the partition such as Begin and the Lehi and the Stern Gang who also wanted the whole enchilada.
So? Israel accepted it, Palestine didn't. That's why there's no state of Palestine today.
 
Yes, the UN is exactly like the magic state fairy. It confers international legitimacy.

I could declare myself a state but no one would recognize me as one. Similarly, as you say, Palestine can, and no doubt DOES declare itself a state often enough but it isn't recognized as one by almost anyone outside the Arab and Muslim World.

As for the UN involvement, I have said that I would like to see it and not to strongarm land away from Israel, but to impose a peace, of sorts which would involve UN inspectors dismantling Hamas weapons and the UN preventing any more settlements, which, could easily be considered the strongarming of land away from the residents of the West Bank. Or do you think that the settlements are myth?

You can't be serious. The UN has absolutely ZERO say in whether a country exists or not. ZERO. They can only recognize a country or not, which says ZERO on the existence of that state. They have ZERO power over the borders of a country or anything to do with any country. ZERO.

You can't declare yourself a state because you don't have any declared rights to the land you are standing on. Yet you go buy an Island in the middle of nowhere and you certainly can. You don't need the UN to do so.

Palestine most certainly does not declare itself a state. This is because they want certain pieces of land in order to do so. They could declare a state now and change those borders later, but they choose not to.

You speak of the settlements as if they are in areas that belong to the Palestinians. They most certainly do not. Every time someone suggested some borders (and each time those suggestions took away land from the Jews) the Jews accepted. But the Arabs did not and declared war. Now it's too late. They lost their right to that land and they were never there first to begin with. But so many act as if it's their god given right to that land. It's not and never has been. Israel tried time and again to make peace and made so many concessions, but in return was attacked every time. So their opportunity has passed and Israel now has learned that the only way they can maintain a defense from the surrounding countries is with the current borders. They are willing to fudge them and accept they will have to give up some land just as the Palestinians will have to give up some of theirs. But the 1967 border will NEVER happen. You might as well be asking them to commit suicide.

The false claim that Palestinians somehow have some right over those lands is the falsehood that is the basis of the conflict. They need to stop fighting over land and start building their infrastructure. And this notion that if they did get the land it would help resolve the conflict is the biggest pile of bull ever. Look at Gaza. Israel gave them Gaza. Did it help? Not in the least bit. It only served to help them launch attacks on Israel. This notion of settlements is simply a scape goat.
 
So? Israel accepted it, Palestine didn't. That's why there's no state of Palestine today.

So how many generations must be punished for a decision made over 60 years ago? I think the Bible ascribed seven generations of collective punishment, right?
 
For the people in this thread who seem to think this 'started' by Hamas firing rockets into civilian areas, an excellent piece by Uri Avery

How did it start? Stupid question.

Conflagrations along the Gaza Strip don’t start. They are just a continuous chain of events, each claimed to be in “retaliation” for the previous one. Action is followed by reaction, which is followed by retaliation, which is followed by…

This particular event “started” with the firing from Gaza of an anti-tank weapon at a partially armored jeep on the Israeli side of the border fence. It was described as retaliation for the killing of a boy in an air attack some days earlier. But probably the timing of the action was accidental — the opportunity just presented itself.

The success gave rise to demonstrations of joy and pride in Gaza. Again Palestinians had shown their ability to strike at the hated enemy.

However, the Palestinians had in fact walked into a trap prepared with great care. Whether the order was given by Hamas or one of the smaller, more extreme organizations — it was not a clever thing to do.

Shooting across the fence at an army vehicle was crossing a red line. (The Middle East is full of red lines.) A major Israeli reaction was sure to ensue.

It was rather routine. Israeli tanks fired cannon shells into the Gaza Strip. Hamas launched rockets at Israeli towns and villages. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis rushed to their shelters. Schools closed.

As usual, Egyptian and other mediators went into action. Behind the scenes, a new truce was arranged. It seemed to be over. Just another round.

The Israeli side did everything to get back to normal. Or so it seemed. The prime minister and the defense minister went out of their way (to the Syrian border) to show that Gaza was off their minds.

In Gaza, everybody relaxed. They left their shelters. Their supreme military commander, Ahmed Jabari, climbed into his car and drove along the main street.

And then the trap closed. The car bearing the commander was blown up by a missile from the air.


http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2012/11/18/another-superfluous-war/
 
You can't be serious. The UN has absolutely ZERO say in whether a country exists or not. ZERO. They can only recognize a country or not, which says ZERO on the existence of that state. They have ZERO power over the borders of a country or anything to do with any country. ZERO.

You can't declare yourself a state because you don't have any declared rights to the land you are standing on. Yet you go buy an Island in the middle of nowhere and you certainly can. You don't need the UN to do so.

Palestine most certainly does not declare itself a state. This is because they want certain pieces of land in order to do so. They could declare a state now and change those borders later, but they choose not to.

You speak of the settlements as if they are in areas that belong to the Palestinians. They most certainly do not. Every time someone suggested some borders (and each time those suggestions took away land from the Jews) the Jews accepted. But the Arabs did not and declared war. Now it's too late. They lost their right to that land and they were never there first to begin with. But so many act as if it's their god given right to that land. It's not and never has been. Israel tried time and again to make peace and made so many concessions, but in return was attacked every time. So their opportunity has passed and Israel now has learned that the only way they can maintain a defense from the surrounding countries is with the current borders. They are willing to fudge them and accept they will have to give up some land just as the Palestinians will have to give up some of theirs. But the 1967 border will NEVER happen. You might as well be asking them to commit suicide.

The false claim that Palestinians somehow have some right over those lands is the falsehood that is the basis of the conflict. They need to stop fighting over land and start building their infrastructure. And this notion that if they did get the land it would help resolve the conflict is the biggest pile of bull ever. Look at Gaza. Israel gave them Gaza. Did it help? Not in the least bit. It only served to help them launch attacks on Israel. This notion of settlements is simply a scape goat.

Wow! That post looked like someone needs to take some blood pressure medicine.

Some of what you say is hilarious. I like the idea, for example, that the Palestinians want to be in the UN so they can steal Israeli land. It's funny.:)
 
Wow! That post looked like someone needs to take some blood pressure medicine.

Some of what you say is hilarious. I like the idea, for example, that the Palestinians want to be in the UN so they can steal Israeli land. It's funny.:)

So true. I was going to reply but the gave up - its either Poe a troll or somebody so far off the deep end that it would have been an entirely fruitless endeavour anyway :D
 
Seriously dude, take a deep breath and look at what you're saying. You say all of Israel is on land that doesn't belong to them, and then you talk about Israel's borders? :boggled:

The settlements are built outside the `67 Israeli borders.
That is, Israel territory expands gradually taking out homes and land from territory where Palestinians live.

http://www.thehypertexts.com/images/israel-palestine_map.jpg

Edited by LashL: 
Changed hotlink to regular link. Please see Rule 5.
 
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Sure does! Especially when you take onto account that military service is compulsory there's as much chance of hitting the home of an IDF member by lobbing those fire crackers over the wall
Firecrackers? Wow, stay classy.

as there is an IDF not killing a kid when they drop bombs on the homes/families of alleged Hamas members :)
I'm glad this whole thing amuses you.
 
That's the 4th time in the last few days you've used Nazi imagery to describe Israel.

That veneer is getting mighty transparent.
Let me stop the discussion for a second to say -- this is something you, bit_torrent, and you, JihadJane (and others of the same cloth) should actually stop and consider.

I don't know if you have me on ignore because you never address anything I say, but if you can read this, stop and think about this. I just made a reply saying that I used to be a Palestine-supporter. I was never a supporter of terrorism, as certain others here, but I believed the IDF was in the wrong and questioned whether Israel should've existed in the first place.

Consider this for a moment. As an ignorant bystander, I was confronted with a discussion that was actually educational, from people who knew what they were talking about and backed up their positions with facts.

Detrimental to this progress in me was pro-Israeli posters like Thunder, who wasn't interested in rational discussion

Now consider this for a moment. We have here this thread. On the one hand are people who are discussing the subject. Then we have people like me, who have opinions, but are for all intents and purposes laymen.

Then we have people who support Palestine with one-liners, tonnes of pictures and links, compare Israelis to Nazis, and who either ignore posters who talk to them or just sit there and shout "no u!".

For an innocent bystander who's on the fence about the whole issue, what effect do you think your posts have?

Are the homes of Israeli soldiers also then legitimate targets?
It depends. Here in Norway we have an institution of the army known as the heimvern, which translates to something like Home Guard. It is comprised of servicemen who live civilian lives for the most part, but who can be called upon to fight on short notice. For a while they even kept their service weapons in their homes.

If I was part of an invading army, I suppose that yes, targetting the homes of heimvern fighters would be a legitimate course of action (especially if a group of HV servicemen had gathered in a single house to plan an attack, for example), as long as you were 100% sure no civilians would get killed.

I don't know if the IDF has an equivalent of the HV, though, but as another poster explained, yes, bases of operations are legitimate targets. Heck, any building, be it a school, mosque or hospital, becomes a legitimate target the second you station combatants there. That's according to the Geneva Conventions:

Art. 18. Civilian hospitals organized to give care to the wounded and sick, the infirm and maternity cases, may in no circumstances be the object of attack but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict.

States which are Parties to a conflict shall provide all civilian hospitals with certificates showing that they are civilian hospitals and that the buildings which they occupy are not used for any purpose which would deprive these hospitals of protection in accordance with Article 19.


Art. 19. The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit and after such warning has remained unheeded.

The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants which have not yet been handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.
​
In other words, the second you use a hospital, TV station, school or home as a terrorist camp, your enemies are allowed to hit you. That's the rules of war as laid down by the International Committee of the Red Cross, to be obeyed by all fighting forces, not just those of Israel.

If you have moral objections, that's fine, but when it comes to the rules of engagement, houses are legitimate targets. Heck, I don't believe houses are protected by the GCs in the first place, so technically it doesn't even matter if they're used for military purposes (and, of course, as anyone who's watched a war film or played a first-person shooter, they tend to get shot up pretty bad in gunfights anyway).

Doesn't this, by your implied logic, make any part of Israel a legitimate target?
Doesn't matter, because either way, what HAMAS is doing is intentionally targeting civilians, which is, for all intents and purposes, not allowed.

It was passed by the UN who then accepted Israel as a nation state. You may have heard that Palestine has not been.
Yup. People may complain about Israel's right to exist all they want, but really, most other countries' rationale for existing is just that... well, they were better at fighting than the other guys.

Why are Norway and Sweden sovereign states while Lappland isn't? We were stronger than them, and we built cities while they had a nomadic lifestyle, which allowed us to settle and take over their land fairly easily.
Now, that's a great justification:rolleyes:.
 
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I see some news commentators conflating the Israeli policy of targeting the houses of militants' families with the collateral damage that might be caused by Israeli bombs missing rocket launch sites and hitting houses instead. The deliberate targeting of the houses of people associated with militants has nothing to do with any Hamas rocket positions.

I've already noted what I think of this tactic. Militants engaged in battle, far game, militants at home with family, not fair game.

Also, does everyone agree that this incident more or less precipitated the recent cycle of rockets and airstrikes?

November 8:
Israeli forces cross into Gaza, exchange fire with Gazan fighters, and a kid is killed. There is also an explosion in a tunnel that injures an Israeli soldier (in Gaza?)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/08/palestinians-israel-violence-idAFL5E8M8AWS20121108

From the cited link, this followed a two-week pause in violence.

No, and the link is simply wrong, there was no two week lull. This is the two weeks prior to the attacks.

October 28 - Overnight, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. In the morning, a third Qassam rocket and two Grad missiles exploded near Beersheba. The Popular Resistance Committees claimed responsibility for one of the Grad missiles. The Beersheba municipality cancelled school; Mayor Rubik Danilovich explained that the decision resulted from experience, saying, "We've had four direct hits on schools, and each of those times was when we were told to resume normalcy." In the afternoon, another rocket landed near Ashkelon.

October 29 - Throughout the night and morning, Palestinians fired 20 rockets and mortars at Sderot and the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. Residents of these towns were cautioned to stay within 15 seconds of reinforced "secure rooms" for protection in case a rocket fell.

October 30 - At 7:44 in the morning a rocket hit the outskirts of Dimona, no injuries or damage reported. That was the first time 45km rocket had been used.

October 31 - In the morning, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. One rocket exploded in an open area within a town, but caused no injuries or damage.

November 4 - Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into Israel, causing no injuries or damage.

November 6 - At 10:20am Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.
 
No, and the link is simply wrong, there was no two week lull. This is the two weeks prior to the attacks.

October 28 - Overnight, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. In the morning, a third Qassam rocket and two Grad missiles exploded near Beersheba. The Popular Resistance Committees claimed responsibility for one of the Grad missiles. The Beersheba municipality cancelled school; Mayor Rubik Danilovich explained that the decision resulted from experience, saying, "We've had four direct hits on schools, and each of those times was when we were told to resume normalcy." In the afternoon, another rocket landed near Ashkelon.

October 29 - Throughout the night and morning, Palestinians fired 20 rockets and mortars at Sderot and the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. Residents of these towns were cautioned to stay within 15 seconds of reinforced "secure rooms" for protection in case a rocket fell.

October 30 - At 7:44 in the morning a rocket hit the outskirts of Dimona, no injuries or damage reported. That was the first time 45km rocket had been used.

October 31 - In the morning, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. One rocket exploded in an open area within a town, but caused no injuries or damage.

November 4 - Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into Israel, causing no injuries or damage.

November 6 - At 10:20am Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.

And than there's the question of why Islamic Jihad started launching so many attacks against Israel after such a long truce.

A strange change in behavior that also could explain why the latest conflict in Gaza started in the first place, why so many rockets have been launched, and why people have died in the latest conflict:

Arab paper: Syria, Iran instigated Gaza conflict


Asharq Alawsat editor claims Syria, Iran caused escalation between Israel, Gaza to aid Assad regime

Against this backdrop, editor-in-chief of the most-read newspaper in the Arab world, "al-Sharq al-Awsat", Tariq Alhomayed tried to turn his readers' attention to another tragedy in the Arab world; revealing what he believes brought upon the escalation in southern Israel – the Iranians and Assad.


In an editorial entitled, "The solution to Gaza…return to Syria," Alhomayed wrote that, " Unfortunately, wars in our region have become like a race, so each war is to cover another one. In other words, these wars are nothing more than a move to escape forward.

Therefore what is happening in Gaza is escaping forward, particularly in the hope of saving al-Assad or at least ensuring that the cost of toppling him will be greater for everybody. The greatest architect of such wars is Iran".



According to Alhomayed, the Iranians tried heating up the fronts on the Israeli borders via their agents. When unsuccessful on the Syrian and Lebanese fronts, they chose the Gaza Strip. "When the Golan front did not move quickly enough for al-Assad and Iran, they resorted to the Gaza front, because this can be inflamed far quicker, whilst it is also easier for Israel in this regard. For Israel, Gaza is like a punching bag that can be used for training and muscle flexing, whilst success in Gaza would strike several “files” in one go "...
 
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I've already noted what I think of this tactic. Militants engaged in battle, far game, militants at home with family, not fair game.



No, and the link is simply wrong, there was no two week lull. This is the two weeks prior to the attacks.

October 28 - Overnight, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. In the morning, a third Qassam rocket and two Grad missiles exploded near Beersheba. The Popular Resistance Committees claimed responsibility for one of the Grad missiles. The Beersheba municipality cancelled school; Mayor Rubik Danilovich explained that the decision resulted from experience, saying, "We've had four direct hits on schools, and each of those times was when we were told to resume normalcy." In the afternoon, another rocket landed near Ashkelon.

October 29 - Throughout the night and morning, Palestinians fired 20 rockets and mortars at Sderot and the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. Residents of these towns were cautioned to stay within 15 seconds of reinforced "secure rooms" for protection in case a rocket fell.

October 30 - At 7:44 in the morning a rocket hit the outskirts of Dimona, no injuries or damage reported. That was the first time 45km rocket had been used.

October 31 - In the morning, Palestinians fired two Qassam rockets into the Eshkol Regional Council. One rocket exploded in an open area within a town, but caused no injuries or damage.

November 4 - Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket into Israel, causing no injuries or damage.

November 6 - At 10:20am Palestinians fired a rocket into the Eshkol Regional Council, causing no injuries or damage.

Is it in response of such rocket attacks, and to prevent such attacks to happen in the future, that Israel keeps building settlements in the West Bank and denies even in principle the existence of a State of Palestine based on the `67 borders?
And how can this stop the attacks?

The logic here:
Israel bombs Gaza and steals land to protect themselves from the Palestinians
The Palestinians and Hamas fire rockets to Israel to protect themselves from the Israeli
With this "logic", I guess we will not go far..
 
There's still some veneer left?

Do you see why it's futile to ask these people what should be done about rocket barrages? Their strategy is to invent new definitions and supposed new rules for warfare and apply them to anything Israel does.

Look at their latest one. Can't kill a terrorist in his home. That's their new "war crime" that applies exclusively to Israel.
 
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The logic here:
Israel bombs Gaza and steals land to protect themselves from the Palestinians
The Palestinians and Hamas fire rockets to Israel to protect themselves from the Israeli
With this "logic", I guess we will not go far..

What land are they stealing in Gaza? There's not a single Jew there.
 
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