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Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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To Stem Mumps Outbreak, Doctors Recommend a Third Vaccination Despite Ineffectiveness of MMR Vaccine and Lawsuit Claiming Fraud
November 13 2012

By Dr. Mercola
Recently published research in the New England Journal of Medicine1 investigated the reasons behind, and potential solutions, for mumps outbreaks reported to the CDC during the past several years. According to the authors, widespread use of the MMR vaccine had reduced the annual incidence of mumps in the US by more than 99 percent by 2005.

But then, suddenly, something changed.

In 2006, a large outbreak was reported among highly vaccinated populations in the US, and two additional outbreaks occurred during 2009 and 2010. The latter two occurred in American Orthodox Jewish communities in and around New York City.

Which means the vaccines don't work or the smartest people on the planet are lying about getting their MMR vaccine shots.http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/11/13/mmr-vaccine-ineffectiveness.aspx
 
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To Stem Mumps Outbreak, Doctors Recommend a Third Vaccination Despite Ineffectiveness of MMR Vaccine and Lawsuit Claiming Fraud
November 13 2012

By Dr. Mercola


Which means the vaccines don't work or the smartest people on the planet are lying about getting their MMR vaccine shots.http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/11/13/mmr-vaccine-ineffectiveness.aspx

Well somebody is lying and it isn't the either the sufferers or the authors of the paper. that only seems to leave your latest source of mis-information, Mercola.

Try a more reasoned approach to evidence.

Many of the individuals attended a religious school where they practiced an intense training technique called chavruta, which involves close contact with a partner across a narrow table. Partners change frequently, and he discussion is often loud and may involve shouting since a larger group may be close to each other, all trying to make an argument or point. This prolonged contact overwhelmed the immunity, from the mumps vaccination (part of the MMR vaccine), for individuals. The study did find high rates of two-dose coverage reduced the severity of the disease and the transmission to people in settings of less exposure. Also, the study found that mumps did not spread outside of the Orthodox Jewish community in the area, further supporting the overall effectiveness of the mumps vaccine in the broader community.
 
Well somebody is lying and it isn't the either the sufferers or the authors of the paper. that only seems to leave your latest source of mis-information, Mercola.

Try a more reasoned approach to evidence.


Quote:
Many of the individuals attended a religious school where they practiced an intense training technique called chavruta, which involves close contact with a partner across a narrow table. Partners change frequently, and he discussion is often loud and may involve shouting since a larger group may be close to each other, all trying to make an argument or point. This prolonged contact overwhelmed the immunity, from the mumps vaccination (part of the MMR vaccine), for individuals. The study did find high rates of two-dose coverage reduced the severity of the disease and the transmission to people in settings of less exposure. Also, the study found that mumps did not spread outside of the Orthodox Jewish community in the area, further supporting the overall effectiveness of the mumps vaccine in the broader community.


By that way way out explanation the youth of the community would have stuck out like a sick sore thumb since it became a Jewish community.
 
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Did you forget that?
Walker-Smith is not Wakefield; they are two entirely different people. What does Walker-Smith's appeal have to do with Wakefield?

By that way way out explanation the youth of the community would have stuck out like a sick sore thumb since it became a Jewish community.
WTH?

Clay, why do you keep changing the subject when you get painted into a corner with your own sources and claims? What happened to MMR causing autism? What happened to ethics breaches by Wakefield? What does an isolated community getting mumps have to do with the topic?

Este
 
Clay, why do you keep changing the subject when you get painted into a corner with your own sources and claims?What happened to MMR causing autism? What happened to ethics breaches by Wakefield? What does an isolated community getting mumps have to do with the topic?

Este
Then there's: vaccines & SIDS; HPV; claims of "absolute safety"; media crucifixion; and the dangers of pneumococcal and Hib vaccines.

It's almost as if Clayton's tactic is to drop unsuccessful arguments without admitting he was wrong and to move onto another argument, desperately hoping no-one will notice that he's been proved wrong once again.
 
^
Alas.
I'm certain sure your suggestion is peerless, but I cannot go there.
I've seen living humans with those ghastley numbers tattooed on their arms.
 
this mercola fella is selling his own snake oil so cnanot be a trusted objective source


I have noticed a pattern on this whole forum. Anyone who expresses a view contrary to the common mantra aren't debated with but subject to ridicule (very much like a schoolyard). Any source they use cannot be a trusted objective source (and when it is it is brushed over). You don't need a peer reviewed paper to convict a murderer, you don't need to write a dissertation to clean a sink.

After all how much of all the knowledge in the universe have we collected. Allot less than one percent I would wager!

<SNIP>
Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility. Please read the Membership Agreement to which you agreed when you signed up, and strive to abide by it.


The Facts about Vaccine Damages -You Pay for them

Health insurance coverage does not cover vaccine damage.

Be prepared to cover a lifetime of care for your child.

Schools will not teach autistic children, often they are expelled.

You will have to pay for special training.

You cannot sue a drug company for a faulty vaccine, the law protects them.

You give vaccines to your children at your own risk.

There is no proof that vaccines work to prevent any disease-never has been.

There is no proof that carcinogens in vaccines do not damage your kids.

There is no proof that vaccines do not cause or help cancer to grow.

There is no proof that multiple vaccines are necessary, they save money only.

There is no proof that vaccines are safe, never has been.

The H1N1 Vaccine of 2010 gave drug company’s over 6 billion dollars profit.

Vaccines are found to contain bacteria and contamination.


Vaccines are now being put in food products, especially GMO Foods.


If I am wrong then educate me properly as a teacher to a student. Not in any other way will people choose to learn or change there beliefs. You seriously expect people to change by being mocked and ridiculed? This forum would be better if there were debates in a friendly and lively way.

BTW I HAVE NOTICED SOME REALLY INTELLEGENT POSTERS WHO DON'T RIDICULE AND YOU ARE MOST APPRECIATED:) THEY JUST SHOOT ME DOWN IN A NICE WAY INSTEAD LOL!
 
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Hi, robcasey.
I've read over your list and would really apreciate some links to the sources which made you think these things are true.
 
I don't follow you, CM.
What exactly do you mean here?


Try a more reasoned approach to evidence.

Quote:
Many of the individuals attended a religious school where they practiced an intense training technique called chavruta, which involves close contact with a partner across a narrow table. Partners change frequently, and he discussion is often loud and may involve shouting since a larger group may be close to each other, all trying to make an argument or point. This prolonged contact overwhelmed the immunity, from the mumps vaccination (part of the MMR vaccine), for individuals. The study did find high rates of two-dose coverage reduced the severity of the disease and the transmission to people in settings of less exposure. Also, the study found that mumps did not spread outside of the Orthodox Jewish community in the area, further supporting the overall effectiveness of the mumps vaccine in the broader community.

That's one of the many nuttiest explanations I've ever heard.
 
I have noticed a pattern on this whole forum. Anyone who expresses a view contrary to the common mantra aren't debated with but subject to ridicule (very much like a schoolyard). Any source they use cannot be a trusted objective source (and when it is it is brushed over). You don't need a peer reviewed paper to convict a murderer, you don't need to write a dissertation to clean a sink.

After all how much of all the knowledge in the universe have we collected. Allot less than one percent I would wager!

<SNIP>
Edited by LashL: 
Removed quote of moderated content.

It's not simply a contrary view robcasey, it's false claims, persistence in the face of demonstrably false information and trying to change the subject rather than admit error. There are good and bad sources and they are not measured by how we like them so yes, it's easy to be dismissive of stupid sites with an agenda (almost always financial) particularly when we are so familiar with them even if you are not. And you do need peer-reviewed papers to support your arguments and you do need a dissertation to become an expert in a particular field. Analogy fail for you.

The Facts about Vaccine Damages -You Pay for them
For which I have no problem with and the vaccine industry is the only one with a compensation scheme in place. I think it's important to keep confidence in such an important public health measure and considering vaccines are given to healthy people (not a therapeutic prophylactic) the safety threshhold needs to be exceedingly high and injury compensated.

Health insurance coverage does not cover vaccine damage.
Not true, health insurance (depending upon one's coverage of course) will pay for illness regardless of the aetiology.

Be prepared to cover a lifetime of care for your child.
I'm probably going to do that anyway. :p A serious vaccine adverse event is rare so I don't understand your implication that all vaccine adverse events lead to serious lifelong sequelae.

Schools will not teach autistic children, often they are expelled.
False. There are disabilities acts in place, at least in the U.S. that require education for special needs children. The quality may vary of course and children are only "expelled" if they are a danger to themselves or others that cannot be safely and humanly managed by staff.

You will have to pay for special training.
Yes, therapies are shown to be effective for autists. I take it that you too are coming from a platform that vaccines cause autism. A difficult road for you which is not going to be accepted if you simply argue from assertion.
You cannot sue a drug company for a faulty vaccine, the law protects them.
False. You can sue vaccine manufacturers if you have gone through NVICP first and can show that they knowingly made a defective or unsafe product. I don't know why anyone would want to go for suing a vaccine manufacturer when the standard of evidence is so low in the NVICP and the petitoner has all legal fees paid for win or lose.

You give vaccines to your children at your own risk.
Of course, just as with any medical intervention or driving them or letting them play, etc.

There is no proof that vaccines work to prevent any disease-never has been.
False. You have a tough time substantiating that one when there are countless studies and statistics which demonstrate the reduction in disease incidence and even elimination and eradication of vaccine preventable diseases.
There is no proof that carcinogens in vaccines do not damage your kids.
What are the carcinogens in vaccines and remember, amounts are very relevant.

There is no proof that vaccines do not cause or help cancer to grow.
The HPV vaccines may very well prevent cancers caused by HPV strains and the Hepatitis B vaccine can certainly prevent liver cancer from hep b infections. There is no proof that vaccines don't cause excessive ear hair either and since that will go over your head, there is a thing called biological plausibility and the onus is upon you to provide evidence for why and how vaccines would cause cancer.

There is no proof that multiple vaccines are necessary, they save money only.
Of course they aren't necessary as long as one doesn't mind dealing with the disease and complications.

There is no proof that vaccines are safe, never has been.
False. I don't know why this should be so hard for you when it took three seconds for this. Vaccines, like anything else are not 100% safe. Can you think of anything that is? Do you apply this standard to everything you do?

The H1N1 Vaccine of 2010 gave drug company’s over 6 billion dollars profit.
Haven't looked at the numbers but this sounds steep. Even so, why aren't companies allowed to make a profit for their products?

Vaccines are found to contain bacteria and contamination.
Sure it happens and fortunately, we have oversight that reduces the public health impact to virtually nil. Stringent requirements put in place due to some disasterous occurances with adventitious agents decades ago when vaccine manufacturing was comparatively crude.

Vaccines are now being put in food products, especially GMO Foods.
False.

If I am wrong then educate me properly as a teacher to a student. Not in any other way will people choose to learn or change there beliefs. You seriously expect people to change by being mocked and ridiculed? This forum would be better if there were debates in a friendly and lively way.

BTW I HAVE NOTICED SOME REALLY INTELLEGENT POSTERS WHO DON'T RIDICULE AND YOU ARE MOST APPRECIATED:) THEY JUST SHOOT ME DOWN IN A NICE WAY INSTEAD LOL!

Actually you're JAQ'ing off, making ridiculous claims and then expecting some kind of red-carpet treatment. All caps about vaccine conspiracies deserves mockery and ridicule.

Este
 
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So do the rest of us. I would be interested to see why you would say this and what you are attempting to imply by it.

I am implying that i work allot of hours so its hard to come in catch up with family plus other commitments and then keep up with all the new posts since the last time i looked. So if sometimes i don't reply its not because i am ignorant:)
 
It's not simply a contrary view robcasey, it's false claims, persistence in the face of demonstrably false information and trying to change the subject rather than admit error. There are good and bad sources and they are not measured by how we like them so yes, it's easy to be dismissive of stupid sites with an agenda (almost always financial) particularly when we are so familiar with them even if you are not. And you do need peer-reviewed papers to support your arguments and you do need a dissertation to become an expert in a particular field. Analogy fail for you.


For which I have no problem with and the vaccine industry is the only one with a compensation scheme in place. I think it's important to keep confidence in such an important public health measure and considering vaccines are given to healthy people (not a therapeutic prophylactic) the safety threshhold needs to be exceedingly high and injury compensated.


Not true, health insurance (depending upon one's coverage of course) will pay for illness regardless of the aetiology.


I'm probably going to do that anyway. :p A serious vaccine adverse event is rare so I don't understand your implication that all vaccine adverse events lead to serious lifelong sequelae.


False. There are disabilities acts in place, at least in the U.S. that require education for special needs children. The quality may vary of course and children are only "expelled" if they are a danger to themselves or others that cannot be safely and humanly managed by staff.


Yes, therapies are shown to be effective for autists. I take it that you too are coming from a platform that vaccines cause autism. A difficult road for you which is not going to be accepted if you simply argue from assertion.

False. You can sue vaccine manufacturers if you have gone through NVICP first and can show that they knowingly made a defective or unsafe product. I don't know why anyone would want to go for suing a vaccine manufacturer when the standard of evidence is so low in the NVICP and the petitoner has all legal fees paid for win or lose.


Of course, just as with any medical intervention or driving them or letting them play, etc.


False. You have a tough time substantiating that one when there are countless studies and statistics which demonstrate the reduction in disease incidence and even elimination and eradication of vaccine preventable diseases.

What are the carcinogens in vaccines and remember, amounts are very relevant.


The HPV vaccines may very well prevent cancers caused by HPV strains and the Hepatitis B vaccine can certainly prevent liver cancer from hep b infections. There is no proof that vaccines don't cause excessive ear hair either and since that will go over your head, there is a thing called biological plausibility and the onus is upon you to provide evidence for why and how vaccines would cause cancer.


Of course they aren't necessary as long as one doesn't mind dealing with the disease and complications.


False. I don't know why this should be so hard for you when it took three seconds for this. Vaccines, like anything else are not 100% safe. Can you think of anything that is? Do you apply this standard to everything you do?


Haven't looked at the numbers but this sounds steep. Even so, why aren't companies allowed to make a profit for their products?


Sure it happens and fortunately, we have oversight that reduces the public health impact to virtually nil. Stringent requirements put in place due to some disasterous occurances with adventitious agents decades ago when vaccine manufacturing was comparatively crude.


False.



Actually you're JAQ'ing off, making ridiculous claims and then expecting some kind of red-carpet treatment. All caps about vaccine conspiracies deserves mockery and ridicule.

Este

damm you started so nice and then you end with this!

Actually you're JAQ'ing off, making ridiculous claims and then expecting some kind of red-carpet treatment. All caps about vaccine conspiracies deserves mockery and ridicule.

Never mind you have gave me food for thought thanks for that. Clearly i do need to look closer at the evidence any helpful links would be appreciated. I came here to learn. keep ya mockery and ridicule for ya kids please!
 
damm you started so nice and then you end with this!

Actually you're JAQ'ing off, making ridiculous claims and then expecting some kind of red-carpet treatment. All caps about vaccine conspiracies deserves mockery and ridicule.

Never mind you have gave me food for thought thanks for that. Clearly i do need to look closer at the evidence any helpful links would be appreciated. I came here to learn. keep ya mockery and ridicule for ya kids please!
Then mind your own tone and actually ask sincere questions. Don't expect your hand held when you come out of the gate guns a blazing. Ask specific questions for where you feel your deficits are and you will be provided with more reading material than you would probably like. I can be awfully nice. :D

Este
 
I don't follow you, CM.
What exactly do you mean here?

Wouldn't there have been illness "outbreaks" in Jewish communities that practiced Chavruta over the years/decades/4 scores/centuries. The Jewish people, after germs were discovered, wouldn't have figured out the close quartered activity was causing the outbreaks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavruta

For the Israeli gays association, see Havruta (organization).
Chavrutas (study partners) sit opposite each other or side by side in the beis medrash of Yeshiva Gedola of Carteret

Chavruta, also spelled chavrusa or havruta (Hebrew: חַבְרוּתָא‎, Arabic: حَوَارِيُّ‎, from the Aramaic for "friendship"[1] or "companionship"[2]), is a traditional Rabbinic approach to Talmudic study in which a pair of students independently learn, discuss, and debate a shared text. It is a primary learning method in yeshivas and kollels, where students often engage regular study partners of similar knowledge and ability. The traditional phrase is to learn b'chavruta (Hebrew: בְחַבְרוּתָא‎, "in chavruta"; i.e., in partnership); the word has come by metonymy to refer to the study partner as an individual, though it would more logically describe the pair. In Orthodox parlance, a chavruta always refers to two students, but Reform Judaism has expanded the idea of chavruta to include study groups of up to five individuals.
 
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