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Merged Thread to Discuss The Excellent Analysis of Jones latest paper

Remo : even you should admit that specifications of Tnemec and "Laclede" red primers were hardly "invented"/fabricated by NIST in its WTC reports;)
Remember that the specifiation of Tnemec paint was considered as "hard data" even by Harrit and Jones (later, after publishing the Bentham paper) just for the additional reasoning that red/gray chips in the dust are not "WTC primer paint":cool:
Also, the specification of Laclede primer is simply "hard data" (this paint was apparently applied on WTC1/2 floor trusses) and you are perhaps the very first truther who tries to deny even this:rolleyes:

It's perhaps notable, although indeed off-topic, that NIST celebrates really outstanding success these days (a quote from 911Blogger):

"In an agency press release dated October 9, 2012 NIST , The National Institute of Standards and Technology has announced that one of its scientists, David J. Wineland, has been awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics."

My congratulations to NIST and thanks for its excellent work, including WTC reports!
:cool:)
 
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SPECULATION
Why is zinc and chromium not seen in the expected amounts of the steel primer paint in the Harrit and Millete’s tests.
Zn and Cr are the active anticorrosive ingredients in the Tnemec , Laclede steel primer paints. The primer paint solution is applied to the clean steel. If Zn and Cr separate while wet and bind to the steel substrate, they would not show up in the tests examining only the surface area of the red chips. The assumption of the tests is that all the primer compounds are represented in their formula proportions on the surface of the red chips.
Thanks, Chris. I wonder why Jim Millette is still so "cryptical"... Laclede primer paint is the clear candidate as for the material of the most of his red-gray chips.
I would bet my left nut on it and I do not believe that we may have overlooked some better "culprit" in this "criminal case"
Zn and Cr might be found in the expected formula amounts bound to the steel between the red and gray layers.
I would bet Kminek’s right nut on it.

The Laclede primer was electrocoated. This may explain the SrCr bound to the steel, and not present in the face layer of the red chip.
Quote:
“The electrocoating process may be anodic or cathodic, depending on the charge applied the substrate. Although the processes are virtually the same, properties of the resultant coating are dissimilar. Anodic systems, which were the first to be used for electrocoating, apply paint to positively charged substrates. The negatively charged pigment and resin particles deposit onto the substrate (anode). One disadvantage of this process is that substrate metals dissolve and become incorporated into the coating, which affects surface properties. “

http://www.engineershandbook.com/Mfg...trocoating.htm

ETA: How does one test this hypothesis. One could grind each individual chip into a powder, spread it thinly and run the tests again. Some would be Tnemec, most would be Laclede.
 
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SPECULATION
Why is zinc and chromium not seen in the expected amounts of the steel primer paint in the Harrit and Millete’s tests.
Zn and Cr are the active anticorrosive ingredients in the Tnemec , Laclede steel primer paints. The primer paint solution is applied to the clean steel. If Zn and Cr separate while wet and bind to the steel substrate, they would not show up in the tests examining only the surface area of the red chips. The assumption of the tests is that all the primer compounds are represented in their formula proportions on the surface of the red chips.

Zn and Cr might be found in the expected formula amounts bound to the steel between the red and gray layers.
I would bet Kminek’s right nut on it.

The Laclede primer was electrocoated. This may explain the SrCr bound to the steel, and not present in the face layer of the red chip.
Quote:
“The electrocoating process may be anodic or cathodic, depending on the charge applied the substrate. Although the processes are virtually the same, properties of the resultant coating are dissimilar. Anodic systems, which were the first to be used for electrocoating, apply paint to positively charged substrates. The negatively charged pigment and resin particles deposit onto the substrate (anode). One disadvantage of this process is that substrate metals dissolve and become incorporated into the coating, which affects surface properties. “

http://www.engineershandbook.com/Mfg...trocoating.htm

Thanks:cool: I think that we already discussed this kind of stuff in the past, but with no conclusive "output".

I will consider only Laclede primer, since Jim Millette did not find any strontium chromate, which should be present in this paint (in minute amounts).

Yes, it is possible that strontium chromate is bound to the steel surface in the anodically electrocoated Laclede primer, therefore it's not detectable on the chips surfaces (e.g. visible as typical crystalline needles). But as you wrote, it's just more speculation than explanation so far. We should find more details in the literature.

If I remember correctly, I also found some links, according to them strontium chromate must be gradually /very slowly/ dissolved/ionized by penetrating water from the air humidity, to be effective as corrosion protective stuff in the paint (and it works especially in the deffects of the paint, where bare steel surface is exposed). This can perhaps also explain the absence of the strontium chromate crystals on the WTC chip surfaces in Millette's study (or at least some substantial changes of their size/shapes might happen), since chips are more than 40 years old; but it is also just mere speculation.

For red/gray chips washed with clean water by Jim Millette, there can be another reason why strontium chromate is not detected/visible: crystals very close to the surface were simply dissolved in water (solubility of this stuff is ca 1 g/L of water, which is not high, but still: is high enough for dissolving some rare tiny crystals in a lot of water). And the same may be valid also for zinc chromate in Tnemec chips washed with water, btw.
 
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Thanks:cool: I think that we already discussed this kind of stuff in the past, but with no conclusive "output".

I will consider only Laclede primer, since Jim Millette did not find any strontium chromate, which should be present in this paint (in minute amounts).

Yes, it is possible that strontium chromate is bound to the steel surface in the anodically electrocoated Laclede primer, therefore it's not detectable on the chips surfaces (e.g. visible as typical crystalline needles). But as you wrote, it's just more speculation than explanation so far. We should find more details in the literature.

If I remember correctly, I also found some links, according to them strontium chromate must be gradually /very slowly/ dissolved/ionized by penetrating water from the air humidity, to be effective as corrosion protective stuff in the paint (and it works especially in the deffects of the paint, where bare steel surface is exposed). This can perhaps also explain the absence of the strontium chromate crystals on the WTC chip surfaces in Millette's study (or at least some substantial changes of their size/shapes might happen), since chips are more than 40 years old; but it is also just mere speculation.

For red/gray chips washed with clean water by Jim Millette, there can be another reason why strontium chromate is not detected/visible: crystals very close to the surface were simply dissolved in water (solubility of this stuff is ca 1 g/L of water, which is not high, but still: is high enough for dissolving some rare tiny crystals in a lot of water). And the same may be valid also for zinc chromate in Tnemec chips washed with water, btw.

Yes, I mentioned the electrocoated Laclede (not Tnemec - spray painted) and the washing was discussed.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8072184#post8072184

How do you think these hypotheses could be tested?
1. Zn, Cr, Sr washed off with water from the surface of the chip before testing.
2. Or bound to steel and not measurable (none or in insufficient amounts) at the surface of the chip.

One could grind each individual chip, red and gray layer, into a powder (the Millette ones already washed and tested to compare with before and after, or new ones) , spread it thinly and run the tests again. Some would be Tnemec , most would be Laclede IMHO. Maybe even lead as the active ingredient. I remember drafting in the early seventies "red lead primer" for steel on architectural drawings.
One could test chips off present Tnemec Zinc or chromate primer paint on steel to see if they are visible on the surface of the chips.
"Tnemec Primer Red"
http://www.tnemec.com/resources/product/MSDS/Series%2010%20Red.pdf



ETA:
quote:
"The metal oxides of elements like iron do not bind well to the metal surface. The metal oxide layer tends to separate from the boundary between the metal oxide and metal. Eventually, the oxide layer will flake off, exposing a new layer of metal to oxidation. This effect is technically called corrosion. Metals like iron tend to "pit" from corrosion, and the oxide (rust) layer will eventually permeate the entire piece of metal. This is why iron sheet metal (such as in a car body panel) tends to form rust holes. In general, corrosion compromises the structural integrity of the metal.
The oxide layers of metals such as aluminum, copper, magnesium, titanium and zinc, however, bind tightly to the metal's surface. As a result, the oxide layer rarely penetrates more than a few atoms deep. The oxide layers on such metals are therefore said to "passivate" the metal against further oxidation. In some cases, the oxide layer is deliberately formed by an electrochemical process so that its thickness and uniformity can be carefully controlled."
http://www.ehow.com/about_6160418_metal-oxide-passivation_.html



 
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Yes, I mentioned the electrocoated Laclede (not Tnemec - spray painted) and the washing was discussed.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8072184#post8072184

How do you think these hypotheses could be tested?
1. Zn, Cr, Sr washed off with water from the surface of the chip before testing.
2. Or bound to steel and not measurable (none or in insufficient amounts) at the surface of the chip.

One could grind each individual chip, red and gray layer, into a powder (the Millette ones already washed and tested to compare with before and after, or new ones) , spread it thinly and run the tests again. Some would be Tnemec , most would be Laclede IMHO. Maybe even lead as the active ingredient. I remember drafting in the early seventies "red lead primer" for steel on architectural drawings.
One could test chips off present Tnemec Zinc or chromate primer paint on steel to see if they are visible on the surface of the chips.
"Tnemec Primer Red"
http://www.tnemec.com/resources/product/MSDS/Series%2010%20Red.pdf



ETA:
quote:
"The metal oxides of elements like iron do not bind well to the metal surface. The metal oxide layer tends to separate from the boundary between the metal oxide and metal. Eventually, the oxide layer will flake off, exposing a new layer of metal to oxidation. This effect is technically called corrosion. Metals like iron tend to "pit" from corrosion, and the oxide (rust) layer will eventually permeate the entire piece of metal. This is why iron sheet metal (such as in a car[qimg]http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png[/qimg] body panel) tends to form rust holes. In general, corrosion compromises the structural integrity of the metal.
The oxide layers of metals such as aluminum, copper, magnesium, titanium and zinc[qimg]http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png[/qimg], however, bind tightly to the metal's surface. As a result, the oxide layer rarely penetrates more than a few atoms deep. The oxide layers on such metals are therefore said to "passivate" the metal against further oxidation. In some cases, the oxide layer is deliberately formed by an electrochemical process so that its thickness and uniformity can be carefully controlled."
http://www.ehow.com/about_6160418_metal-oxide-passivation_.html




As for solubility of strontium chromate in water, one problem is that we do not know what volume of water was used by Jim Millette. But let me suppose that he used 1 ml of water (probably more).

Using more such "hausnumeros" or "Bulgarian constants" (how we call uncertain data in Czech:cool:):

Strontium chromate needle can typically have a length ca 2 microns and crossection ca 0.1x0.1 microns. The volume of such crystals in cubic centimeters should be 0.0002x0.00001x0.00001 cm3, i.e. 2x10-14cm3. Considering density 3 g/cm3, such crystal should have weight ca 6x10-14 g.

If they are let's say hundreds of such crystals exposed on the surface of chip (measuring let's say 1 mm), they can be indeed completely dissolved in 1 ml (1 cm3) of water, especially under some agitation (since solubility of strontium chromate is ca 1 mg/ml of cold neutral water).

The end of hausnumerical calculations:cool:

I think that gradual dissolution/leaching of strontium chromate from the paint and its bonding onto steel surface is quite plausible explanation why this stuff is not easily detected on the chips; and you are right that the grinding of the whole chips and measuring e.g. XEDS of such powder (or atomic absorption spectra of the acidic water extract of such powdered material) could detect chromium (and even strontium using second method). But for any proof of these two elements, we should pay some more money

As for gradual leaching of strontium chromate from the WTC epoxy paint on steel during tens of years, we can hardly find some exact data.

Here are some interesting details as for behavior of epoxy coating with 2 % of strontium chromate under simulated "acid rain" condition.
This article is not available even for me here at home, but what I remember:

At such conditions (coating immersed in slightly acidic water), some minor (low molar mass and polar) portion of crosslinked epoxy is gradually extracted from the coating, which leads to some very slight "porosity" of the epoxy resin. Thanks to this, strontium chromate crystals trapped in the resin are better accesible for water and they can more easily "leach" from the resin as ions, forming quite quickly very thin passivating layer on the steel (where paint is damaged).

(Btw it is also written in this paper (or perhaps in some similar paper) that the behavior/solubility/leaching of such pigment can be influenced by "microchemistry" or "microelectrochemistry" in place, e.g. by some local changes in pH. Such systems are simply too complex for any exact "predictions" of their behavior.)
 
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BasqueArch (and all who may be interested):

After some more literature search, I would say that the leaching of chromates from primers is generally investigated in the way that coating is either immersed in some water solution, or (rarely) exposed to accelerated wheatering conditions. Therefore those conditions are not comparable to those valid for Laclede primer coating on WTC floor trusses .

One (probably) relevant note: We know that chromates are gradually leaching even from the dry paint (always exposed to humid atmosphere) and are deposited mostly on the bare metal in the places of deffects in paint (e.g. on scratches, pinholes, edges etc).
Indeed, in the case of WTC red/gray chips, there is really a lot of huge deffects, since the paint layer is dissintegrated into small pieces (ca 0.1 to 2 mm). Here, leaching of chromates into deffects (mostly chip edges) should be much more extensive than in the case of continuous paint.

In this interesting and thorough paper, leaching of strontium chromate from the epoxy primer PR143, sprayed with neutral salt water solution, is investigated. It seems that close to the artificially made deffects in this paint layer, chromate is gradually depleted and the "depletion zone" around the deffect is ca 40 microns wide (and becomes wider after longer times).

For Oystein: Here is an interesting SEM image from the paper (Fig. 2), showing the crossection of the primer paint (covered with some top paint) and namely strontium chromate crystals in it:

picture.php


We see that not all strontium chromate crystals are needles in this case. (And the needle visible is pretty long here.) On the right side, we see an artificially made deffect on this paint:cool:
 
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...and one more citation as for the mystery (well, it is still a mystery:confused:) of missing (not found) strontium chromate crystals in Jim Millette's red/gray chips:

In this report, leaching of chromates from primers was investigated:
1) using spraying of layers with water solutions;
2) using so called "humidity cabinet". In it, air humidity can be somehow adjusted (?), but it seems that in this case, air humidity is not really specified. This test should meet some norm called "Military Specification JAN-H-792", which requires "temperature 48.9C and a high (unspecified) relative humidity".

In the experiments in humidity cabinet (Fig. 1), loss of about 10 % of zinc chromate from the primer was observed during first 50 days. After this initial period, the loss of ca 0.1 % per day is basically expected in the report, so after ca 1000 days (ca 3 years), all chromate should leach from the paint (at these conditions).

(Since solubilities of strontium and zinc chromates should be quite similar, data on zinc chromate should be basically usable also for strontium chromate)
 
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For red/gray chips washed with clean water by Jim Millette, there can be another reason why strontium chromate is not detected/visible: crystals very close to the surface were simply dissolved in water (solubility of this stuff is ca 1 g/L of water, which is not high, but still: is high enough for dissolving some rare tiny crystals in a lot of water). And the same may be valid also for zinc chromate in Tnemec chips washed with water, btw.

As a "quick, dirty, and cheap" test for strontium chromate in the wash, one might try adding a drop of silver nitrate solution to see if it forms the intensely red compound silver chromate (used in microscopy staining).
 
As a "quick, dirty, and cheap" test for strontium chromate in the wash, one might try adding a drop of silver nitrate solution to see if it forms the intensely red compound silver chromate (used in microscopy staining).

You are probably right:cool:

In fact, there are several ASTM standards, dealing with analyses of strontium chromate, e.g.:
ASTM D1845 - 86(2008) "Standard Test Methods for Chemical Analysis of Strontium Chromate Pigment", with e.g. those tests:
Strontium by the Strontium Sulfate Method
Chromium by the Thiosulfate Method


Thinking again about "excuses" why strontium chromate was not detected by Jim Millette (if analyzed chips were Laclede chips):

- As for samples from "high temperature ashing" (at 400 degrees C): this chromate, which decomposes as a pure compound at ca 400 - 500 C, is a strong oxidizing agent; therefore it can be easily destroyed in samples by the oxidation reactions with polymer binder and its degradation products. Quite probable:cool:

- As for samples from "low-temperature ashing" (in oxygen plasma): perhaps even here, crystals of this chromate were destroyed somehow by the reaction with organics (well, not very probable:().

- As for micrographs of red layers, mere 2 % of strontium chromate needles might be simply not visible on the chip surfaces (their random orientation along the surface, which is necessary for their visibility in the needle form, is not very frequent).
Here is a Fig. 20 from Jim Millette report, showing "TEM image of an ultra-thin section of a red layer":

picture.php


Are there all visible crystals just iron oxide and kaolinite? Perhaps some of them are chromate needles? (Just a pure speculation:cool:)




 
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In the houses of shadow everybody lies.

": even you should admit that specifications of Tnemec and "Laclede" red primers were hardly "invented"/fabricated by NIST in its WTC reports :"Ivan

The legendary 'inventions' and 'fabrications' you speak of were in the creation by NIST of LS-DYNA and ANSYS[secret] modeling, orchestrating their 'low probability new phenomenon' 'normal office furnishings fire' Free Fall agnotology, and are enough to cast doubt on its entire existence.
 
remo,

please check your "private messages" / "PM Box" which you find near the top right of this page. It's full.

Then I would like to remind of what the topic of this thread is: "to Discuss The Excellent Analysis of Jones latest paper", meaning the Harrit e.al. paper at Bentham, and discussion of the red-gray chips.

Please take very careful notice that the NIST, or the NIST reports as such are NOT on topic - the reports are at most a source for references concerning the paint jobs that the WTC towers got, as it is contended in the "Excellent Analysis of Jones latest paper" that (many of) the reds-gray chips are really just primer paint chips from WTC steel.

So read this carefully, remo: NIST's LS-DYNA and ANSYS[secret] modeling would be off-topic!
I think your invoking them as your private reason to hand-wave the LaClede paint formulation is probably borderline on-topic. But please don't venture beyound that.


I would have written you this in a private message, and also a detailed explanation as to why I reported as "derailing the thread" your post of a couple of days ago, but your PM box was full. Please clear it.
You possibly don't understand that, if you keep posting off-topic posts, you may continue receiving infractions (you already got three "yellow cards" in this thread alone, all three for intentionally derailing the thread) and may on top receive suspensions, and eventually a banning. I find it possible that you simply have not ever seen your private messages, which would contaon messages from moderators, notifying you of moved posts and the reasons for infractions.


Please, remo, reply to this post, so that we know you are at least capable of reading and replying. So far, interaction with you has been frustrating, reminding me of how it is with certain kinds of autism patients - you just don't react at all, or your reactions are eery non-matches to the current topic.
 
The legendary 'inventions' and 'fabrications' you speak of were in the creation by NIST of LS-DYNA and ANSYS[secret] modeling...

No.

My field of expertise is computational tools for science and engineering. As part of my job I build and operate high-performance computers and apply them to design and performance analysis in the public and private sector.

The software systems you mention are not secret, nor were they created by NIST, nor were they created solely for the purpose of analyzing 9/11 incidents. They are, in fact, standard and widely available tools used in everything from crash analysis in automotive and aerospace to structural performance in static structures.
 
No.

My field of expertise is computational tools for science and engineering. As part of my job I build and operate high-performance computers and apply them to design and performance analysis in the public and private sector.

The software systems you mention are not secret, nor were they created by NIST, nor were they created solely for the purpose of analyzing 9/11 incidents. They are, in fact, standard and widely available tools used in everything from crash analysis in automotive and aerospace to structural performance in static structures.

Actually, Jay, if he's a standard truther, I believe he's more referring to the specific models used rather than the programs themselves. Or to put it in other words, he's probably referring to the specific part of the analysis project NIST implemented where those FEA applications were used, and not the tools themselves.

Of course, the spirit of your post - that the tools are widely available and not a mystery nor are some sort of governmental voodoo invoked for convenience - is absolutely correct, but I fear that this post is already enough of a digression from the thread topic to warrant stopping my post here.
 
Actually, Jay, if he's a standard truther, I believe he's more referring to the specific models used rather than the programs themselves.

Oh I see, I may have misunderstood him then. He wants the data sets. By "model" I understood him to say the abstract principles of computational structural dynamics. He's asking for the input data files, and that's less conspiracisty. In the spirit of remaining on topic, I'll also desist from talking about NIST in a Jones topic.
 
Hi Folks

Still digging through the Harrit-nano-paper, I could use some of your brains to confirm if I understand things correctly or not.

1. Concerning aluminum:
As far as I can see in the Nano-report, all Harrit's spectra show that Al and Si follow each other, thus confirming the Millette conclusion of aluminum silicate, except for one spectrum: Fig. 17 that shows a high peak of Al and very little Si. BUT is it not correct that: A) We do not know whether this is just a single finding?
B) We do not know which chip it is, and it is perhaps none of the four mentioned (a-d)?
C) He says that it is a spectrum of a "region" of the chip, so there might be other regions of the chip that would point to another result, right? (I do not know how an XEDS spectrometer works, but the word "region" sounds like it is not a precise picture of what the chip as a whole contains.
D) Still, Harrit bases his claim of Al findings on that spectrum only, right? Or at least it is the only spectrum he CAN base anything upon, seeing that the other spectras show Aluminum-Silicate, right?
E) Whether Harrit's spectrum in fig. 17 is correct or not, it could not be replicated in the Millette tests, right? So Harrit would have to prove that Millette has ovelooked something or somebody else would have to replicate Harrit's findings, right?

2. Concerning iron rich spheres:
Figure 21 reads a significantly higher peak on Fe versus O compared to all other spectras in the report. But is it not correct that:
A) This is just one of many spheroids in the residue and we have no knowledge of wether it is statistically representative, i.e. many or most other spheroids may contain more O that Fe?
B) Statistically, you would find spheroids with various amounts of Fe versus O in them and they would still be considered as Iron-oxide spheres, right?

C) This leads to the opposite question: How should the Fe versus O be balanced in order to call the spheroid elemental iron or iron-oxide? The strict answer would probably be: Elemental iron must contain only Fe. BUT realistically, if you, in fact, did ignite nanothermite at WTC, would the Fe not be contamined with all kinds of materials and thus rarely be pure Fe?

D) Another way to put it: Is it enough for Harrit to find just one pure Fe-spheroid to prove nanothermite and that a redox happened? Would he not have to find a whole lot of them and futhermore do some sort of a count or measurement to prove that they were abundant compared to other findings?

E) Even IF he did in fact find a whole lot of pure Fe-spheroids, he could not conclude thermite, could he? He would have to find a whole lot of (unignited) elemental aluminum and connect it to an equal amount of Iron-oxide, right?

Let alone all the other necessities: Equipment to ignite, control and time the nano-blasts and a way to mount the equipment and smuggled all of it into WTC unseen. But let us stick to the physics and chemistry by now.

Let me hear your clever comments, please.

Kindly,
Steen
 
Hi Steen,

fiirst of all, slightly wrong thread, but no worries. I'll report it after I finish my reply, to ask a mod to move it to one of the Harrit-paper threads.

1. Concerning aluminum:
As far as I can see in the Nano-report, all Harrit's spectra show that Al and Si follow each other, thus confirming the Millette conclusion of aluminum silicate, except for one spectrum: Fig. 17 that shows a high peak of Al and very little Si. BUT is it not correct that:
A) We do not know whether this is just a single finding?
B) We do not know which chip it is, and it is perhaps none of the four mentioned (a-d)?
C) He says that it is a spectrum of a "region" of the chip, so there might be other regions of the chip that would point to another result, right? (I do not know how an XEDS spectrometer works, but the word "region" sounds like it is not a precise picture of what the chip as a whole contains.
D) Still, Harrit bases his claim of Al findings on that spectrum only, right? Or at least it is the only spectrum he CAN base anything upon, seeing that the other spectras show Aluminum-Silicate, right?
E) Whether Harrit's spectrum in fig. 17 is correct or not, it could not be replicated in the Millette tests, right? So Harrit would have to prove that Millette has ovelooked something or somebody else would have to replicate Harrit's findings, right?
A) Yes, this (Fig 17) is, as far as I am aware, the only published finding that seems to indicate elemental Al, and certainly the only one in the Harrit-paper. From recent remarks over at 911Blogger by Steven Jones I would surmise that they really don't have any other data point for elemental Al, or else they would be screaming it from the roofs.
B) Not perhaps - we know for a certain fact that this chip, which is described in Fig. 12-18, is not one of chips a-d, described in Fig. 6-11, and probably also in Fig. 2-5. It is also clearly different from chips a-d: The red layer seems to be at least twice as thick, and the overall XEDS spectrum (Fig. 14) differs so drastically that surface contamination is no acceptable excuse, and the XEDS-Map (Fig 15). I am pretty certain that Jeff Farrer did the tests on chips a-d, and Steven Jones did the MEK-soaking test - most likely at different times, and perhaps independently. The quality of the former is much better than that of the latter. Jeff is the manager of the TEM (electron microspcopy) lab, and certainly knows how to do it, while Jones has no background in these matters.
C) The electron beam of an electron microscope can be set to focus very narrowly, or scatter more widely, and thus cover a smaller or larger area of the specimen. Fig. 14 shows the result from scanning a large portion of the surface of that chip, before MEK soaking, while Fig. 16-18 show the result of an electron focussed narrowly on some small spot on the surface (after soaking). It is customary to also provide an image of the specimen and indicate, typically as a little box, which spot they focused on for which XEDS spectrum.
An interesting case is Fig. 15, the XEDS-map: There, they have focussed on many spots, like pixels, and show which spots contain more than some threshold amount of the 5 elements they are interested in. You see that the signal for Al is concentrated very much on the steeply sloped "rim" of the chip. This is quite peculiar - how would the Al "know" to migrate there from the MEK soaking? Overall (Fig. 14), that chip contains VERY little Al - less than 1% by weight. I have some speculations about Fig. 15, but that would go tooo far here.
D) Yes, that is the only spectrum that shows so much Al and so little of everything else that at least some of the Al must be elemental - too little O to oxidize it all, no Si. But I have my doubts about Fig 17 as well...
In chips a-d, Al and Si are such even matches everywhere they look (especially Fig. 10 and Fig 11), with enough O thrown in, that Al-silicate is an obvious conclusion, especially given the kaolin-like look of the particles where this Al:Si signal is found.
E) Correct. Millette did one XEDS map, in a somewhat more sophisticated manner, looking specifically for a spot with a "mainly Al" phase, and found none. In addition, he found that Al and Si are indeed bound as Kaolin, an Al-silicate.


2. Concerning iron rich spheres:
Figure 21 reads a significantly higher peak on Fe versus O compared to all other spectras in the report. But is it not correct that:
A) This is just one of many spheroids in the residue and we have no knowledge of wether it is statistically representative, i.e. many or most other spheroids may contain more O that Fe?
B) Statistically, you would find spheroids with various amounts of Fe versus O in them and they would still be considered as Iron-oxide spheres, right?
C) This leads to the opposite question: How should the Fe versus O be balanced in order to call the spheroid elemental iron or iron-oxide? The strict answer would probably be: Elemental iron must contain only Fe. BUT realistically, if you, in fact, did ignite nanothermite at WTC, would the Fe not be contamined with all kinds of materials and thus rarely be pure Fe?
D) Another way to put it: Is it enough for Harrit to find just one pure Fe-spheroid to prove nanothermite and that a redox happened? Would he not have to find a whole lot of them and futhermore do some sort of a count or measurement to prove that they were abundant compared to other findings?
E) Even IF he did in fact find a whole lot of pure Fe-spheroids, he could not conclude thermite, could he? He would have to find a whole lot of (unignited) elemental aluminum and connect it to an equal amount of Iron-oxide, right?
A) Correct. Jones certainly wants to make it appear like it is a typical, representative sphere, but he shies away from stating that outright. Note that it is relatively small, at a few micrometers. Also, not that smooth a surface, could be from some sintering process rather from melting and re-solidifying. Other spheres are much larger, for example Fig 23 - why not XEDS those? Oh wait - he did: Fig 26, and there you have plenty of O, and thus mostly, of not entirely, iron oxide.
B) Not so sure. Yes, the Fe:O ratio would vary, but within not so great bounds. Mostly, you would find an atomic ratio between 1:1 and 1:1.5. Things get more compicated of course by the inclusion of other compounds (silica, silicates, soot, ...)
C) See above. But more problems if you go with XEDS only:
- You can't quantify the elements reliably with that method
- You can only guess at compounds. Iron could be oxide, but also carbide, hydroxide, perhaps silicate, etc. O can be bound with almost everything, so basically you speculate when you try to quantify those spectra and assign amounts to compounds or elements. The right way to go here would be other methods such as XRD and FTIR
- You are surely right that even if a thermite reaction had taken place, and elemental iron was thus produced, it would be very likely to quickly react with the oxygen from ambient air and re-oxidize at least partially. Another reason why they ought to have done it under inert atmosphere.
D) The also should have shown that before the reaction there was plenty of elemental Al, and after the reaction there was plenty of Al-oxide. They showed neither. So even if iron was reduced, elemental iron produced, that wouldn't prove a thermite reaction. Iron can be reduced by other means. For example, carbon monoxide (CO) and benzene would have the ability to do that. We know that the red layer was mostly organic, and that the organix matrix decomposed. It certainly is possible that this organic decomposition released some CO. Epoxy (remember: Millette proved epoxy by FTIR; and LaClede paint is epoxy-based) is a polymer consisting of intermeshed benzene rings. I don't know how epoxy decomposes thermally when heated slowly, but you can't rule out that it releases benzene as an intermediate product. So there are plenty of things that Harrit e.al. would have to rule out (and they didn't) before concluding that only a thermite reaction could have produced those few spheres that have a little excess in O.
E) See above: Along with elemental iron he'd have to show aluminium oxide; and that both weren't present before.

Let alone all the other necessities: Equipment to ignite, control and time the nano-blasts and a way to mount the equipment and smuggled all of it into WTC unseen. But let us stick to the physics and chemistry by now.

Let me hear your clever comments, please.

Kindly,
Steen
 
Thanks Oystein

That really filled in a lot of gaps.

In the light of Harrit sometimes focusing on the a-d chips but then concluding from a fifth chip, I could not help wondering about one thing:

They have four dust samples each containing several red/grey chips, right?
But they only examine four chips (a-d) and one or two more that are not named. Why?

I mean, would it not be more convincing if they examined 10 or 20 or more chips? It would indeed form a much better stastistical basis. Especially, if they did not differ that much.

The great problem seems to be, as you point out, that Harrit presents four samples (a-d) relatively alike but then bases his conclusion on a fifth very unlike the others.

You mentioned that they should find aluminum oxide after ignition to prove reduction but is that possible? I thought that aluminum oxide was a gas that would evaporate? Is your point, then, that it is easy to show evidence of aluminum oxide in a lab experiment but quite impossible at GZ if, in fact, a thermitic reaction had occured there?

Kind regards
Steen

PS: Thanks for moving this debate to the right thread. :-)
 
Oh, by the way, Oystein, your answer to this question still keeps me a bit in the dark:

"C) He says that it is a spectrum of a "region" of the chip, so there might be other regions of the chip that would point to another result, right?"

You answered this:
"C) The electron beam of an electron microscope can be set to focus very narrowly, or scatter more widely, and thus cover a smaller or larger area of the specimen. Fig. 14 shows the result from scanning a large portion of the surface of that chip, before MEK soaking, while Fig. 16-18 show the result of an electron focussed narrowly on some small spot on the surface (after soaking). It is customary to also provide an image of the specimen and indicate, typically as a little box, which spot they focused on for which XEDS spectrum.
An interesting case is Fig. 15, the XEDS-map: There, they have focussed on many spots, like pixels, and show which spots contain more than some threshold amount of the 5 elements they are interested in. You see that the signal for Al is concentrated very much on the steeply sloped "rim" of the chip. This is quite peculiar - how would the Al "know" to migrate there from the MEK soaking? Overall (Fig. 14), that chip contains VERY little Al - less than 1% by weight. I have some speculations about Fig. 15, but that would go tooo far here."


I understand your answer as a "yes". Can you confirm that?

But perhaps my question was a bit too weak, as well, so let me be more direct:
Is it possible to manipulate the electron microscope to showing exactly what you hope to find? And could that be what they do? Simply find a "region" where the sample looks like it contains a lot more aluminum than it really does?

Kind regards
Steen
 

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