Honor killing in Pakistan

[Professor Yaffle]

Those were girls who actually got pregnant, and who were obviously not killed.

(I'll leave aside the "so that makes it all right then...")

They weren't just for unwed pregnant girls:

"Those places" were the Magdalene laundries: convents throughout Ireland that contained huge washing workhouses run by nuns, which were originally set up in the early 19th century as a refuge for prostitutes. A hundred years later they had become prisons to which Irish Catholic girls and young women "in moral danger" could be sent by their parish priest - the term covered anyone from single mothers (who had often become pregnant as a result of rape or incest) to girls who were simply high-spirited or "bold". Eventually the laundries would spread to England.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/04/1048962932185.html

 

[Nessie]

Found this

http://www.vawpreventionscotland.org.uk/sites/default/files/Crimes of the Community.pdf

Advantages of honour

1 - Self-awareness/pride
In societies which are ordered around ideas of honour, upholding
perceived standards of behaviour can become the basis of a person’s
identity and positive self-image.

2 - Increased security and prospects for offspring
Families which conform to accepted standards of honour and moral
behaviour receive benefits in terms of a better future for their sons
who enjoy increased marriage and career prospects within their community.

3 - Improved contacts and business opportunities
Families which publicly uphold their honour usually gain increased social
status. This can result in better contacts within the community
which can lead to material benefits such as increased income for the
self-employed and greater trade for owners of shops and businesses.

4 - Providing stability in an changing/new environment
For immigrants arriving in the UK, vesting one’s identity in intangibles
such as traditional ideas of honour and pride can be safer than rooting
one’s reputation and social worth in terms of property, wealth and a
career.

4 - Sense of superiority (vis-à-vis members of other ethnic
groups, castes, religions)
For immigrants with low career prospects, investing in ideas of sexual
honour can provide a way to feel superior to strangers by measuring.

It is incredible that brutal (as is often the case) murder is considered to be an act that carries no dishonour. Then clearly protecting the existing culture is a major reason for such killings

Common ways in which honour can be damaged

1 - Defying parental authority
In many cultures, elder members of the family are expected to control
their children. Parents who publicly fail to do so may lose status in the
community as a result.

2 - Becoming ‘western’ (clothes, behaviour, attitude)
People from honour-based cultures often transform ideas of honour
into a pride in one’s origins and/or religion once they settle in ‘the
West’. Families who allow their children to assimilate into wider society
can be seen as betraying their origins, their community and their
ancestors.

3 - Women having sex/relationships before marriage
Many honour-based cultures put a high premium on a girl’s virginity
and sexual fidelity. Families whose women are believed to have extramarital
relationships (even of a non-sexual kind) can suffer a decline in
honour and social standing.

4- Use of drugs or alcohol
Drinking alcohol and using drugs not endorsed by religion, culture or
tradition can bring shame on families because their children are seen
as abandoning or rejecting the values of their parents and their community.

5 - Gossip
In many cases honour is damaged less by a person’s action than by
knowledge of that action becoming public knowledge. Rumours and
gossip – even if untrue – can damage the status of a family or an individual.

Lastly

"In many cases, families are less concerned with immoral acts, than with how these will affect how they are seen by their relatives and by other members of their community. As honour is an intangible asset dependent on a community’s perceptions, an ‘immoral’ act does not become shameful’ or ‘dishonourable’ until it becomes public knowledge. The consequences of damaging one’s honour or the honour of one’s family can be serious."

 

[joesixpack]

Excellent link, Nessie.

The trouble I'm having is in finding something like a case study demonstrating the actual consequences of a loss of honor in any of these cultures. What is abundantly clear from the link you posted and everything which I've found is that the perception among those who commit honor killings is that the consequences will be real and severe.

 

[Nessie]

I will keep hunting, but yes so far I have no example of what happened to a family who did not kill their daughter when she dishonoured the family.

 

[westprog]

"In many cases, families are less concerned with immoral acts, than with how these will affect how they are seen by their relatives and by other members of their community. As honour is an intangible asset dependent on a community’s perceptions, an ‘immoral’ act does not become shameful’ or ‘dishonourable’ until it becomes public knowledge. The consequences of damaging one’s honour or the honour of one’s family can be serious."

This might be part of the difference between otherwise similar societies as to what the response is to private and public sin. A shame driven society will only be concerned with the public discovery of misbehaviour. A guilt driven society will consider undiscovered disgrace just as bad. Both can otherwise have superficially similar views.

 

[joesixpack]

This might be part of the difference between otherwise similar societies as to what the response is to private and public sin. A shame driven society will only be concerned with the public discovery of misbehaviour. A guilt driven society will consider undiscovered disgrace just as bad. Both can otherwise have superficially similar views.

Are there guilt driven societies? I'm having a harder time understanding the distinction the more I think about it. On the one hand, I understand what you mean, but as I consider it more, guilt and shame are rather inextricably intertwined. I think "guilt" arises out of a fear of being discovered and shamed.

 

[westprog]

Are there guilt driven societies? I'm having a harder time understanding the distinction the more I think about it. On the one hand, I understand what you mean, but as I consider it more, guilt and shame are rather inextricably intertwined. I think "guilt" arises out of a fear of being discovered and shamed.

I think that there's often a mixture of guilt and shame. However, I believe that guilt does exist, as something different to avoiding blame. I think most people posting here have things that they wouldn't do, even if they were sure that they would never be found out.

 

[666]

I will keep hunting, but yes so far I have no example of what happened to a family who did not kill their daughter when she dishonoured the family.

Presumably such cases would not be considered newsworthy. As such you may have a long hunt.

 

[joesixpack]

Presumably such cases would not be considered newsworthy. As such you may have a long hunt.

I don't know about Nessie, but I certainly don't expect it to be in the news. I've been looking in the anthropological studies and surveys. Not having much luck. The few papers that look promising seem to require that I shell out a few bucks.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Are there guilt driven societies?

Yes, they are called Catholics.

 

[I Ratant]

Any of the purveyors of the Original Sin idea creates the guilt-ridden.
I recall watching Jimmy Swaggart confess his sins... masterfully done.

 

[westprog]

Yes, they are called Catholics.

Up to a point. Ireland is far more guilt-driven than the Mediterranean countries, for example.

 

[Stomatopoda]

I'd also be interested in what punishment jref members think should be meted out to these horrid people.

Place the daughter's corpse in a shed with a bit of soil and a few insects. Place the parents on opposite sides, with their heads and arms locked in stocks at kneeling level. Use neck braces to lock their line of sight on the body. Supply oxygen and IV fluids laced with stimulants. Release them after the corpse has completely decomposed.

Too lenient?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Objective conditions change more quickly than culture. I think the Lamarckian evolution of culture allows for changes that may (obviously) occur in less than a a generation. Certain traits with negative selection pressure might persist, but only to a point. the greater the cost to individuals, the more quickly they will change.

Probably under horrid objective material conditions.

You're still skipping an important discovery about survival of the fittest. It's not just about changing conditions while it takes longer for genetics to catch up, though that is also another important factor.

Instead of survival of the fittest, think random mutation and natural selection 'pressures'. Some mutations have a neutral effect on survival. It's then random which are amplified and which die out. Some mutations have a negative survival impact but the effect is not absolute and random circumstances can result in the effect being amplified in spite of a negative survival effect. And a very positive survival trait can still fail to become established depending on circumstances.

Cultural traits almost certainly are subject to similar selection pressures. Would, for example, the maladaptive cultural war tactics of the Aztecs led to their demise had the Conquistadors not found and invaded their territories?

One can easily recall dozens of similar examples where a cultural trait developed in a negative direction but was not affected until some other major change occurred. Everything cultural is not necessarily directly survival pressure selected.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Found this

http://www.vawpreventionscotland.org.uk/sites/default/files/Crimes of the Community.pdf

Advantages of honour

1 - Self-awareness/pride
In societies which are ordered around ideas of honour, upholding
perceived standards of behaviour can become the basis of a person’s
identity and positive self-image.

2 - Increased security and prospects for offspring
Families which conform to accepted standards of honour and moral
behaviour receive benefits in terms of a better future for their sons
who enjoy increased marriage and career prospects within their community.

3 - Improved contacts and business opportunities
Families which publicly uphold their honour usually gain increased social
status. This can result in better contacts within the community
which can lead to material benefits such as increased income for the
self-employed and greater trade for owners of shops and businesses.

4 - Providing stability in an changing/new environment
For immigrants arriving in the UK, vesting one’s identity in intangibles
such as traditional ideas of honour and pride can be safer than rooting
one’s reputation and social worth in terms of property, wealth and a
career.

4 - Sense of superiority (vis-à-vis members of other ethnic
groups, castes, religions)
For immigrants with low career prospects, investing in ideas of sexual
honour can provide a way to feel superior to strangers by measuring.

It is incredible that brutal (as is often the case) murder is considered to be an act that carries no dishonour. Then clearly protecting the existing culture is a major reason for such killings

Common ways in which honour can be damaged

1 - Defying parental authority
In many cultures, elder members of the family are expected to control
their children. Parents who publicly fail to do so may lose status in the
community as a result.

2 - Becoming ‘western’ (clothes, behaviour, attitude)
People from honour-based cultures often transform ideas of honour
into a pride in one’s origins and/or religion once they settle in ‘the
West’. Families who allow their children to assimilate into wider society
can be seen as betraying their origins, their community and their
ancestors.

3 - Women having sex/relationships before marriage
Many honour-based cultures put a high premium on a girl’s virginity
and sexual fidelity. Families whose women are believed to have extramarital
relationships (even of a non-sexual kind) can suffer a decline in
honour and social standing.

4- Use of drugs or alcohol
Drinking alcohol and using drugs not endorsed by religion, culture or
tradition can bring shame on families because their children are seen
as abandoning or rejecting the values of their parents and their community.

5 - Gossip
In many cases honour is damaged less by a person’s action than by
knowledge of that action becoming public knowledge. Rumours and
gossip – even if untrue – can damage the status of a family or an individual.

Lastly

"In many cases, families are less concerned with immoral acts, than with how these will affect how they are seen by their relatives and by other members of their community. As honour is an intangible asset dependent on a community’s perceptions, an ‘immoral’ act does not become shameful’ or ‘dishonourable’ until it becomes public knowledge. The consequences of damaging one’s honour or the honour of one’s family can be serious."

It's one thing to find benefits for honor. It's quite another to look at the specifics such as honor killing. When you look at the details like pouring acid over a child who looked at a boy, the supposed benefits don't necessarily apply.

 

[westprog]

It's one thing to find benefits for honor. It's quite another to look at the specifics such as honor killing. When you look at the details like pouring acid over a child who looked at a boy, the supposed benefits don't necessarily apply.

That applies to many behaviours. The idea is that girls are sufficiently terrified by the prospect of being murdered that they will stay in line. The families which behave in this way will not benefit. The families willing to do so might.

Of course, many such cultural behaviours which make sense under some circumstances will often persist after circumstances change. That's why species go extinct.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That applies to many behaviours. The idea is that girls are sufficiently terrified by the prospect of being murdered that they will stay in line. The families which behave in this way will not benefit. The families willing to do so might.

Of course, many such cultural behaviours which make sense under some circumstances will often persist after circumstances change. That's why species go extinct.

And, lots of cultural behaviors evolve that are not beneficial from the get go, whether circumstances change or not.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

By this logic, you would have been OK with Hitler's final solution.

There are times when it is appropriate to consider another's cultural values as different but reasonable, and times where one can just say, that's wrong, I don't care what the involved people believe.

Wow. We're playing the 'Hitler' comparison card this early in the game? Please explain how not interfering with a culture that has been carrying out a practice at a family level (however barbaric) for probably hundreds of years, is the same as condoning the (relatively) overnight attempted ethnic cleansing of millions by their own Government?

Logic is great when used logically...

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

You and I certainly agree that these crimes take place in a much different cultural milieu, and I think we both agree that they should be examined in that light. I'm just quibbling.

I mostly agree. I would say that I personally think that for Honour Killing to even be a viable option suggests to me it is an acceptable solution in some of these cultures.

I don't think you're quibbling at all - you make some interesting points.

 

[Nessie]

I would say that it is odd there are no news stories about a family who brought shame on themselves by not punishing a daughter who had dishonoured them.

Surely it would be big news and needed news to remind all families of the consequences of not punishing an act of dishonour.