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Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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I'm looking forward to seeing the sources for all of these claims.





Me, too.
Is Jabba aware these claims amount to an accusation of the Archbishop of Turin?

Of course he isn't, because he doesn't actually have any real accusations in mind. He just figures that all these "questions" make the results questionable with no concept as to why it would.
 
- The following is the latest, rough outline of my case. Further breakdowns -- and sources -- will come later.

- I claim that the probability of there being a flaw in the carbon dating is significantly greater than the probability that a 14th century artisan would, could and did create such a Biblically, and scientifically, accurate portrayal.

1. The scientific PROCESSES surrounding the carbon dating were, themselves, suspect.
1.1. The protocols to which the involved laboratories agreed were abandoned by the church officials.
1.1.1. The number of labs involved was reduced from 7 to 3 – one of the labs being eliminated was that of Harry Gove.
1.1.2. The 7 individual samples stipulated were reduced to 3.
1.1.3. The individual samples were supposed to be taken from different areas on the cloth, instead they were taken from one small corner (less than 3 inches by less than ½ inch -- .03% of the entire Shroud).
1.1.4. (This corner, and one other corner, would be the worst possible representatives of the greater shroud except for the obvious patches.)
1.1.5. Only one dating process was used rather than the two stipulated by the scientists.
1.1.6. The two persons involved in the actual cutting of the sample did not include an independent textile expert (Madame Flury-Lemberg was supposed to do the cutting).
1.1.7. No lab reps were permitted to observe the entire cutting and sorting procedures. There were no observers, or video, of the final sorting.
1.1.8. The overall sample included only 7 square centimeters rather than the stipulated 12½.
1.1.9. No real control samples could be provided to the labs – the unique weave of the Shroud precluded the necessary “blindness.”
1.2. (Statistics)
1.3. (Weight)
1.4. (something else...)
1.5. (Emotionality and Bias)
1.6. There had been no chemical or physical testing to make sure that the sample was truly representative of the greater shroud.
1.7. But, in 2004, Ray Rogers found 3 major differences between the carbon dating (and Raes) samples and the rest of the cloth.
1.8. In 2005, John L. Brown of the Georgia Institute of Technology confirmed Rogers’ findings.
1.9. In 2008, a group from the Los Alamos National Laboratories also confirmed Rogers’ findings.
1.10. Carbon dating is not foolproof, whatever, and is only part of the evidence.


2. The probability that a 14th century artisan would, could and did create such a Biblically, and scientifically, accurate piece of art approaches zero.
2.1. Despite the Shroud being at least 600 years old, and one of the most studied ancient artifacts of all time, it still cannot be fully reproduced, or explained, by modern artists or scientists.
2.2. There is significant HISTORICAL evidence that the Shroud existed prior to 1260.
2.3. There is significant SCIENTIFIC evidence that the Shroud existed prior to 1260.
2.4. The evidence we have NECESSITATES the conclusion that the image on the Shroud is SOME SORT OF IMPRINT of a recently tortured and crucified human being.
2.4.1. There are scientifically accurate aspects of the image and “bloodstains” of such a victim that a 14th century artisan would not know about, be able to see, be able to depict or have reason to depict.
2.4.2. It is not a painting.
2.4.3. It includes real blood that was not painted on.
2.5. The evidence we have ALMOST necessitates the conclusion that the recently tortured and crucified human body actually WAS that of the Biblical Jesus.
2.5.1. This body was wounded precisely as was the Biblical Jesus – in some instances contrary to tradition and art, but consistent with the Bible and science.
2.5.2. In other words, a would-be forger would need to be sociopathic, have an expert’s understanding of the critical passages of the Bible, be willing to ignore accepted traditions and be able to inflict all the appropriate wounds and abrasions.
2.6. If the statements above are true, we are forced to consider the following:
2.6.1. How likely is it that someone would choose to do this?
2.6.2. How likely is it that this person would be able to do it
2.6.3. How likely is it that someone in the 14th century would be able to do it so accurately?
2.6.4. How likely is it that “he” would KNOW HOW TO CAUSE THIS BODY TO LEAVE AN IMPRINT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
2.6.5. How likely is it that he would create such a perfect image on his first try? And,
2.6.6. And, how likely is it that he would resort to multiple attempts?

- Hey! Hey! Hey!

--- Jabba

A week, no data, no sources. Dishonest.
 
Let's stipulate that all these are true. OK, yes.

Now, how does that lead to the 14C data measurements being wrong?

Connect the dots for us. For example, "No lab reps were permitted to observe the entire cutting and sorting procedures. This will cause the 14C data to be wrong because..."?

Or

"The overall sample included only 7 square centimeters rather than the stipulated 12 1/2. This will cause the 14C data to be wrong because...."?

So help me out and explain to me why all these things that you list should cause me to doubt the results of the 14C data. I will concede that the overall sample was reduced to 7 square centimeters. I also know why it was done. Now explain why it matters.
He's attempting to smear the scientists who carried out the dating with innuendo, he tried this before with unsubstantiated allegations of lying against Walter McCrone.
His next step will be the full blown conspiracy theory.
Truly pathetic.
 
I remember, oooh, 1912*, I think; I posted on this very thread to express my astonishment that it was still going. I never thought that I would have opportunity to do so again.

From what I can see, since its inception in late 1743 CE*, the content of this thread has remained resolutely static. Nothing new has been said, referenced, decided...

I admit that this is based upon a random, small sample of posts from the last few decades*, so please, if I am wrong and something important, relevant and interesting has been added, would one of you fine ladies and gentlemen point me to it?

I thank you for your time. Have a Jaffa Cake.

*: It's possible that these dates are affected by contamination.
 
I remember, oooh, 1912*, I think; I posted on this very thread to express my astonishment that it was still going. I never thought that I would have opportunity to do so again.

From what I can see, since its inception in late 1743 CE*, the content of this thread has remained resolutely static. Nothing new has been said, referenced, decided...

I admit that this is based upon a random, small sample of posts from the last few decades*, so please, if I am wrong and something important, relevant and interesting has been added, would one of you fine ladies and gentlemen point me to it?

I thank you for your time. Have a Jaffa Cake.

*: It's possible that these dates are affected by contamination.

...well played! Now I have to mop coffee off my monitor...
 
He's attempting to smear the scientists who carried out the dating with innuendo,

Actually, I'm trying to sort out who he is all attempting to smear. As Dinwar notes, among those he implies being a problem is the Archbishop of Turin.
 
^
Once Jabba posts up sources, we can compare notes on the pleasure and/or pain.

1. The scientific PROCESSES surrounding the carbon dating were, themselves, suspect.
1.1. The protocols to which the involved laboratories agreed were abandoned by the church officials.
1.1.1. The number of labs involved was reduced from 7 to 3 – one of the labs being eliminated was that of Harry Gove.
1.1.2. The 7 individual samples stipulated were reduced to 3.
1.1.3. The individual samples were supposed to be taken from different areas on the cloth, instead they were taken from one small corner (less than 3 inches by less than ½ inch -- .03% of the entire Shroud).
1.1.4. (This corner, and one other corner, would be the worst possible representatives of the greater shroud except for the obvious patches.)
1.1.5. Only one dating process was used rather than the two stipulated by the scientists.
1.1.6. The two persons involved in the actual cutting of the sample did not include an independent textile expert (Madame Flury-Lemberg was supposed to do the cutting).
1.1.7. No lab reps were permitted to observe the entire cutting and sorting procedures. There were no observers, or video, of the final sorting.
1.1.8. The overall sample included only 7 square centimeters rather than the stipulated 12½.
1.1.9. No real control samples could be provided to the labs – the unique weave of the Shroud precluded the necessary “blindness.”
....

All these objections hinge on the Archbishop Ballestrero's intervention.
It's difficult to imagine just what Jabba is saying here, other than he thinks there was a conspiracy.
Could you clear this up, please, Jabba?

ETA:
The last 'objection' can hardly be laid to the archbishop's door.
Sorry for the exaggeration.

But really, Jabba.
A goodly number of these 'objections' have been answered in this thread.
Why bring them up again?
 
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Your Side?

- Borrowing from Catsmate (not quite verbatim), the following is a suggested beginning outline for YOUR side of this story. Please let me know if you have additions, or changes, otherwise.
- I hope to begin adding MY follow up claims to YOUR beginning outline, your follow ups to my follow ups, etc. – and then, I hope to add YOUR follow up claims to MY beginning outline, my follow ups to your follow ups, etc.
- Somewhere in those two haystacks, we should start adding SOURCES for our claims. We’ll see what happens.
- The specifics here are sort of tricky as to how to fit all this together -- for instance, my outline is oriented towards the validity of the carbon dating, whereas yours is oriented towards the authenticity of the Shroud in general.
- I’ll try to carry the ongoing debate, both sides, on my website (http://shrouddebates.com/), but present each addition over here as they’re added. I'll be trying to focus on one "branching" at a time.
- Quite tedious of course, but maybe we’ll actually get somewhere.
--- Jabba

1. Historical:
1.1. the lack of evidence for the shroud's existence prior to the mid fourteenth century
1.2. it's emergence during the 'holy relic' craze (along with about forty other such burial shrouds)
1.3. lack of mention of a miraculously imaged Shroud in any early Christian writings
1.4. the distinct changes in the shroud, fading of colour, since its first exposure

2. Physiological:
2.1. the lack of resemblance of the shroud image to an actual human body;
2.2. likewise the position of the body with hands folded across the genitals which simply isn't possible for a body lying flay (the arms aren't long enough)

3. Textile:
3.1. the weave pattern of the shroud does not match anything known from first century Mid East
3.2. the weave pattern matches medieval Europe well;
3.3. no example of the complex herringbone twill weave has even been shown to come from the first century Mid East

4. Testimony:
4.1. the d'Arcis Memo indicates the shroud was created around 1354 and was a known fake
4.2. …

5. Artistic:
5.1. the face of the image resembles medieval Byzantine style, with Gothic elements;
5.2. the unnaturally elongated body shape and extremities are typical of the elongated style the Late Medieval/High Gothic period

6. Reproducibility:
6.1. contrary to the claims of shroudies the image can and has been reproduced using medieval methods

7. Analytic:
7.1. microscopic examination, (including non-visible, polarised light and electron microscopy) shows the shroud is composed of common artistic pigments of the period of its origin
7.2. chemical testing shows the same
7.3. radiocarbon testing, carried out under highly controlled conditions by three laboratories showed the cloth to be medieval.
7.3.1. under heavy supervision a sample of the shroud were removed on 21APR1988 by Riggi; the strip came from a single site on the main body of the shroud away from any patches or charred areas and was split into three pieces and sealed into containers by Ballestrero and Tite.
7.3.2. accelerator mass spectroscopy
7.3.3. cleaning was done with expert input (including Proctor & Gamble), this removed ~30% of the sample mass. Each laboratory used slightly different methods; hot ether, ultrasonic bath, vacuum pipette, repeated acid and alkali baths with intermediate washing, detergents, ethanol, bleach
7.3.4. three laboratories analysed shroud samples in conjunction with three other supplied sample of known provenance
7.3.5. all three analyses agreed, the shroud dates from 1260 and 1390AD (>95 per cent confidence) and between 1000 and 1500AD (>99.9 per cent confidence)
7.3.6. the results were formally published in Nature in February 1989:
"These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the shroud of Turin is medieval"
7.3.7. accusations from believers began almost immediately accusing scientists of faking the tests or substituting samples

8. Cultural:
8.1. the shroud does not match with what is documented and known of first century Jewish burial practices
8.2. nor does the shroud match the only extant sample of such burial cloths;
8.3. neither does the shroud match the biblical accounts of the burial cloths;
8.4. there any no demonstrated artefacts of the putative Jesus extant today
8.5. the supposed historical background does not suggest that such a cloth would have been preserved, certainly without publicity prior, to ~1355

9. Serological:
9.1. a minor point (as blood probably wouldn't survive this long anyway) but despite the best attempts of (and much lying and pseudoscience by) shroudies, there is no evidence for blood residue__________________
 
- Borrowing from Catsmate (not quite verbatim), the following is a suggested beginning outline for YOUR side of this story. Please let me know if you have additions, or changes, otherwise. ...

No, Jabba, no.
You do not get to dictate any outlines for 'debate' here.
You get to post the sources for the claims you've already presented.
 
Wow. It's like stepping back in time.

...I wonder where I left my flares...
 
- Borrowing from Catsmate (not quite verbatim), the following is a suggested beginning outline for YOUR side of this story. Please let me know if you have additions, or changes, otherwise.
Hold on just one second. You are blatantly telling us that you intend to plagiarise Catsmate, but also that you will change the words, but also that you will not identify what you changed and why (as demonstrated in the rest of your post). Right
- I hope to begin adding MY follow up claims to YOUR beginning outline, your follow ups to my follow ups, etc. – and then, I hope to add YOUR follow up claims to MY beginning outline, my follow ups to your follow ups, etc.
I hope nobody will engage with this swill.

- Somewhere in those two haystacks, we should start adding SOURCES for our claims. We’ll see what happens.
You are seeking a needle in a stack of needles.
- The specifics here are sort of tricky as to how to fit all this together -- for instance, my outline is oriented towards the validity of the carbon dating, whereas yours is oriented towards the authenticity of the Shroud in general.
You mean the C14 dating you refuse to address?

- I’ll try to carry the ongoing debate, both sides, on my website (http://shrouddebates.com/), but present each addition over here as they’re added. I'll be trying to focus on one "branching" at a time.
- Quite tedious of course, but maybe we’ll actually get somewhere.
--- Jabba
The only debate is your internal one.

I will not glorify your bastardisation of Catsmates words by honouring them with a quote.
 
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