The crucifixion of Jesus Christ

[Akuma Tennou]

Before I do, are there bunnies?

No point wasting a click.

that's it! the logicalness of your questioning made me see the bible from a different point of view: and if the inconsistencies of the bible were mere easter eggs from god? won't that be a sign that he loves to play with us? he is SO caring! **** atheism, christianism à la PeaceCrusader is the real deal

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Before I do, are there bunnies?

No point wasting a click.

There are no bunnies. There is an old letter which says, briefly, "we hate having to ask the Jews what day Easter is because the Jews are poopy heads so we're just going to have Easter at Eastertime and that's that".

It doesn't prove anything about any purely lunar calendar.

 

[Astreja]

Jesus was crucified sometime during Passover.

But earlier in this very same thread you told us that Jesus was not crucified during Passover because of the commotion it would cause!

If you can't keep even that story straight, Aristeo, why should we believe anything you have to say?

If only I had something like a magic ring that had the power to make the truth spontaneously burst out, no matter how hard people tried to hide it...

*Springy G blinks twice*

*fumbles around under Her blouse and finds a silver ring and replica of Thor's hammer Mjöllnir on a thong around Her neck*

...Oh. Carry on...

 

[abaddon]

@Meadmaker, #374

Jesus was crucified sometime during Passover.

Was he? Who cares?

My contention is that Passover was in a purely lunar calendar from the departure of the Israelites from Egypt in the 16th century BC till the reformation of the Jewish calendar in 358/359 AD. Together with Passover (14th day of the first month) in the purely lunar calendar, at least, are the Feast of Unleavened Bread (15th-21st day of the first month) and the Feast of the Dedication (15th day of the seventh month).

Calendrical malarkey, at best.

What did Josephus say regarding the order of King Herod of the burning of Matthias and his companions alive for raising the sedition? It happened on the night before the fast, and that very night, there was an eclipse of the moon (Antiquities, Book XVII, Chapter 6, Section 4).

Are you referring to what Josephus actually wrote, or the bits the Paulinites added along the way?

A lunar eclipse happened during a full moon. Fred Espenak of NASA said that in 33 BC when Jesus was born, there were two lunar eclipses: April 1 and September 25 (Julian calendar dates).

I already roasted you on what Espanek actually said in the last thread. Are you seeking a repeat?

I chose April 1 because it is observed in Jerusalem.

Yellow flag: You chose == You made it up.
Red Flag: This date gave you no pause for thought?

What are the Jewish fasts in the 15th of the month? Nothing except the Fast of Esther on Nisan 15. During the reformation of the Jewish calendar, the Fast of Esther was moved to Adar and Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread were placed in Nisan.

Doesn't matter. They can fool around with calendars and dates and it still means nothing.

Feast of the Dedication should be in Tishri 15 but there is already Tabernacles (Sukkoth) there. So it was moved on Kislev 25 (to compete with Christmas on December 25?).

Still matters not a whit, no matter how the dates may or may not be juggled.

These prove that the Israelites were using two calendars during the crucifixion of Jesus: a purely lunar calendar and a lunisolar calendar. When they reformed their calendar in 358/359 AD, they incorporated Passover and other feasts in the former to the latter and stopped using it.

Unfounded conclusion.

BTW, why are you avoiding your previous claims, like princess lindywindy, and mrs stanley unwin with her amazing 70 corpses doodley oodley?

 

[tsig]

Isis wept, PC, you have zero evidence that such a crucifixion occurred at all, let alone insisting that you know what date on a purely imaginary calendar such an event took place.

An imaginary calendar would seem the perfect timekeeping device for an imaginary event.

Stardate 875420066644442.1> Invention of the warp drive.

 

[Meadmaker]

@Meadmaker, #375

Why should the speaking in tongues be in Tabernacles (Sukkoth) and not in Pentecost (Shavuoth) (Acts 2:1)?
First – the day following the ascension of Jesus to Heaven was the Feast of Tabernacles.

Says who?

Second – Between Tabernacles and Pentecost, people get drunk at the former (Acts 2:13-15). That is why Peter said that it was still early, the third hour of the day or about 9am, to charge the men to be drunk when speaking in different languages.

For those of you playing along at home, but not reading Acts, here's the story. On Pentecost (as it says in the Bible anyway, PeaceCrusader insists it was actually Sukkot), Jesus' disciples started speaking in tongues. Some people were amazed, because they heard the disciples speaking in their own language. (i.e. a Parthian heard them speaking Parthian. A Roman heard them speak Latin. Jews heard Aramaic, etc.) Others, though, heard babbling. Those who heard babbling suggested that perhaps the men were drunk.

Peter addressed the crowd and said, (paraphrasing) "Drunk? Are you kidding? It's 9 o'clock in the morning."

Somehow, PeaceCrusader is using this as evidence of what time of the year it was. I'm having a hard time following what he says, but it seems he is saying that pious Jewish men are in the habit of getting drunk at 9 o'clock in the morning, but only at certain times of the year, and since they weren't drunk at 9 am that day, it was obvious during Sukkot.

That's........weird.

The spirit of Ama did not say that the Israelites reformed their calendar in 358/359 AD. I learned this in the calendar discussion list that I participate in. Ama just said that Jesus was crucified on August 17. That’s all.

I was referring more to the "why" that you cited. I know they reformed their calendar at that time, but I seriously doubt that you cited the correct reason for doing so.

Emperor Constantine wrote a letter addressed to those who were not present at the Council of Nicea (325 AD). He blames the Jews for killing Jesus and how erroneous they were in celebrating Passover at the wrong time. In fact, he even cited that the Jews at times celebrated Passover twice in one year.

Are you aware that Jews outside of Israel still celebrate Passover twice in one year, every year? They have done so for many centuries. The practice started in Babyon, and spread throughout the diaspora. It's a pretty safe bet that Constantine was referring to this custom.

How come?

Because the dating of the "lunisolar" calendar requires observation of the new moon in Jerusalem. Before accurate astronomical practices, you might be a day off if you weren't in Jerusalem. Therefore, all of the major holidays, including Passover, were celebrated twice, on two successive days, just to be absolutely sure you were celebrating at least once on the correct day.

Jews still do this, just as we have done for approximately 2,000 years. The Emperor Constantine didn't seem to think this was a good idea.

 

[Meadmaker]

Aside: PeaceCrusader and I are using different names for different holidays.
Passover is the English word for the Jewish holiday called Pesach. In Greek, that's Pascha, from which we get the word "pascal". We normally refer to Pesach/Passover as the eight day festival in spring, but in the Torah/Bible, it does actually distinguish the first night as the night of Passover, and the rest of the holiday as the Feast of the Unleavened Bread.

During Passover/unleavened bread, the Torah commanded a barley sacrifice, and then you start counting days. Fifty days later, there would be another holiday, Shavuot, which commemorates the receipt of the 10 commandments at Mount Sinai. In Greek, fifty days=pente cost. So the holiday of Pentecost refers to the Greek name describing the Jewish holiday Shavuot.

In "the seventh month", there's a holiday called Sukkot. A Sukka is a temporary dwelling. The plural is Sukkot. The most common translation is "booth". The King James Bible, and some others, translates "Sukka" as "tabernacle". I think that's a bad translation, because it suggests the dwelling place of the Lord, which is wrong. On the other hand, the Latin word just means "tent", so the sense of "sukka" is not lost there.

Then there is the "Feast of Dedication". The Hebrew word for "dedication" is "Hanukah". Finally, there is Purim. The day before Purim is the "Fast of Esther", although in the Bible, Esther fasted, but she did not fast on the day before Purim. PeaceCrusader wants to put the "Fast of Esther" on the day on which Esther fasted, but Jews do not, and never have, done that, so why he wants to is a mystery.

 

[Meadmaker]

Feast of the Dedication (15th day of the seventh month).

I challenge you to find any reference anywhere to Hanukah being held on the 15th day of the seventh month. (Reminder: The word "hanukah" means "dedication".)

What did Josephus say regarding the order of King Herod of the burning of Matthias and his companions alive for raising the sedition? It happened on the night before the fast, and that very night, there was an eclipse of the moon (Antiquities, Book XVII, Chapter 6, Section 4).

That it happened on the day of "a fast". It's generally accepted to be the eclipse of 4 BC.

A lunar eclipse happened during a full moon. Fred Espenak of NASA said that in 33 BC when Jesus was born, there were two lunar eclipses: April 1 and September 25 (Julian calendar dates). I chose April 1 because it is observed in Jerusalem.

Of course, there's a problem, because Josephus has a bunch of events in it that could be verified from secular sources, and if the eclipse referred to byJosephus was in 33 BC instead of 4 BC, all of those dates would be off.

What are the Jewish fasts in the 15th of the month? Nothing except the Fast of Esther on Nisan 15.

Except that the Fast of Esther was never observed on Nisan 15.

ETA: And wait. Where did the 15th come from? Josephus doesn't say anything about the 15th.

During the reformation of the Jewish calendar, the Fast of Esther was moved to Adar and Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread were placed in Nisan.

Except that the Mishnah places Passover in Nisan, and it was completed almost 200 years before calendrical reform.

And of course we could go back to Constantine and note that a lot of Christians put Passover in Nisan, which was also before the Jewish calendar reform of 358. Constantine seemed to think that all of the Jews put Passover in Nisan. (And of course, he was correct.)

Feast of the Dedication should be in Tishri 15

Says who? The earliest reference to it is in the Book of Maccabees, 500 years before the calendar reform, and it is firmly on the 25th of Kislev, and you will not find any reference anywhere that puts it on any other date.

So it was moved on Kislev 25 (to compete with Christmas on December 25?).

Which would be even odder, since the calendar reform happened outside of the Roman empire at first, and the date of Christmas wasn't set at December 25 until after that time.

These prove that the Israelites were using two calendars during the crucifixion of Jesus: a purely lunar calendar and a lunisolar calendar. When they reformed their calendar in 358/359 AD, they incorporated Passover and other feasts in the former to the latter and stopped using it.

But the Torah says they were only using one calendar. Leviticus 23 again. So you would have to say that that calendar was purely lunar, despite the barley references, and then they moved some, but not all, of the holidays to the lunisolar calendar, and then they moved the rest later.

Oy Vey! I can only imagine the arguing in the synagogues when they tried that.



Another aside: You seem to think that the Egyptians used a purley lunar calendar. If so, they didn't record that use. Everything about the Egyptian calendar, including their religious festivals, revolved around the Nile floods. A purely lunar calendar would have been quite useless.

 

[pakeha]

...Feast of the Dedication should be in Tishri 15 but there is already Tabernacles (Sukkoth) there. So it was moved on Kislev 25 (to compete with Christmas on December 25?).,,

Meadmaker has ably dealt with all your claims and I hope you'll take some time to consider them and back away from your assertions about dating, PC.

That absurd statement about the Jews choosing the date for Hannukah to 'compete' with Christmas is rather sad.

...Are you aware that Jews outside of Israel still celebrate Passover twice in one year, every year? They have done so for many centuries. The practice started in Babyon, and spread throughout the diaspora. It's a pretty safe bet that Constantine was referring to this custom.


Because the dating of the "lunisolar" calendar requires observation of the new moon in Jerusalem. Before accurate astronomical practices, you might be a day off if you weren't in Jerusalem. Therefore, all of the major holidays, including Passover, were celebrated twice, on two successive days, just to be absolutely sure you were celebrating at least once on the correct day.

Jews still do this, just as we have done for approximately 2,000 years. The Emperor Constantine didn't seem to think this was a good idea.

 

[SezMe]

PeaceCrusader, this question might have come up previously in this thread and, if so, I apologize in advance.

Are you still in contact with AMA/Kaz/WhatEverHerNameIs? If so, by phone or email or other means. And what has she said about the Olympics debacle?

If not, is there a way to communicate with her?

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Meadmaker has ably dealt with all your claims and I hope you'll take some time to consider them and back away from your assertions about dating, PC.

That absurd statement about the Jews choosing the date for Hannukah to 'compete' with Christmas is rather sad.

@pakeha, #409

Don’t jump into conclusion, pakeha, that I would back away from my assertion about dating because of my non-answering Meadmaker’s responses immediately. I still believe that Ama’s revelation that Jesus was crucified on August 17 is true and correct. I am still preparing my answers to Meadmaker’s three responses. Which do you think is more logically correct: my findings or Meadmaker’s assertion?

 

[PeaceCrusader]

PeaceCrusader, this question might have come up previously in this thread and, if so, I apologize in advance.

Are you still in contact with AMA/Kaz/WhatEverHerNameIs? If so, by phone or email or other means. And what has she said about the Olympics debacle?

If not, is there a way to communicate with her?

@SezMe, #410

This thread is about the crucifixion of Jesus. The spirit of Ama uses the physical body of Ka Apaz. He revealed that Jesus was crucified on August 17. I first heard this in 1983 from older members when I first went to the Session Hall in Metro Manila. I only checked if there is any ring of truth in it in 1999. By 2003, I have proofs that it is true and correct that Jesus was really crucified on August 17. The year? Believe it or not, it is 1 BC.

Because of this confidence that Ama’s revelations are correct and that the 19 prophecies that He said on 1979-10-19 have happened, have been happening, or not happened yet but most likely will happen as well, I went to the Philippines in 2012-05 to ask that if the world war that will start from the Philippines He said on 1986-06-13 will happen soon. Ama told us in the first brief session we had with Him that it will happen on a Wednesday. During the hour-long second session, He mentioned about the 2012 Olympic Games (OG) in London. I was amazed with these new revelations. So I informed people what Ama said. I know that the prophecy failed because the OG was held successfully and ended on 08-12. But there is still the tensions at the Spratly Islands claimed by the Philippines. I believe that the world war will still happen from Spratly Islands. It must just have been moved. When will it happen? I do not know. I just say, “in His time”, “in God’s time”.

I have mentioned that the spirit of Simon of Cyrene who helped Jesus carry the cross to Calvary is now in the physical body of a 63-year-old male person. He often calls me and calls the Philippines. So it is through him that I convey the questions I wish to ask Ama and Ka Apaz. I did not ask him to ask Ama and Ka Apaz about the non-fulfilment of Ama’s prophecy because I think it was just moved. He said that Ka Apaz is now too sickly so he just talk to Pilar Pilambato, a widow who is assisting Ka Apaz.

 

[Akhenaten]

Which do you think is more logically correct: my findings or Meadmaker’s assertion?

Your pathetic attempt at subterfuge by describing your own made-up nonsense as 'findings' and Meadmaker's real and demonstrable knowledge of the subject at hand as 'assertion' is both ludicrous and offensive.

You haven't posted anything which is logically correct since arriving here.

 

[Akhenaten]

@SezMe, #410

This thread is about the crucifixion of Jesus.

Actually, no it's not.

It's about a superficially similar story which mentions some of the same places and uses some of the same names as the 'original', but when all is said and done, it's a completely different (and bizarrely less likely) story altogether.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

I challenge you to find any reference anywhere to Hanukah being held on the 15th day of the seventh month. (Reminder: The word "hanukah" means "dedication".)

@Meadmaker, #408

What is being dedicated in the celebration of Hanukkah? Isn’t it the First Temple that king Solomon built? 1 Kings 8:2 states: “And all the men of Israel assembled themselves unto king Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.” What feast was this? Leviticus 23:34 states: “Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the Lord.” So king Solomon held the dedication of the First Temple during the Feast of Tabernacles on the seventh month.

There are three feasts on the seventh month: Rosh Hashanah (New Year’s Day on the first), Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement on the tenth), and Sukkoth (Feast of Tabernacles from the fifteenth to the twenty-first). Which feast? I believe it is Sukkoth because this is what is stated in 1 Kings 8:65-66: “And at that time Solomon held a feast, and all Israel with him, a great congregation, from the entering in of Ha-math unto the river of Egypt, before the LORD our God, seven days and seven days, even fourteen days. On the eighth day, he sent the people away: and they blessed the king, and went unto their tents joyful and glad of heart for all the goodness that the LORD had done for David his servant, and for Israel his people.”

Also in 2 Chronicles 7:8-10: “Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him; a very great congregation, from the entering in of Ha-math unto the river of Egypt. And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly; for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days. And on the three and twentieth day of the seventh month he sent the people away into their tents, glad and merry in heart for the goodness that the LORD had showed unto David, and to Solomon, and to Israel his people.”

 

[SezMe]

I have mentioned that the spirit of Simon of Cyrene who helped Jesus carry the cross to Calvary is now in the physical body of a 63-year-old male person. He often calls me and calls the Philippines. So it is through him that I convey the questions I wish to ask Ama and Ka Apaz. I did not ask him to ask Ama and Ka Apaz about the non-fulfilment of Ama’s prophecy because I think it was just moved. He said that Ka Apaz is now too sickly so he just talk to Pilar Pilambato, a widow who is assisting Ka Apaz.

Would the 63-year old person like to join our discussion here? Doing so might further the discussion. Why not invite him? You could tweak his interest by telling him of all the things you've learned here.

When someone dies, does the spirit immediately occupy another person? If so, how do you know who the new landlord is? Has this happened in the past? If so, has the spirit ever taken a body other than a Filipino? For example, have you ever been occupied by a spirit?

I ask all these questions because this discussion seems (to me, anyway) to have bogged down a bit. If you could bring new blood into the mix, we might get some new information to work with.

 

[Agatha]

@pakeha, #409

Don’t jump into conclusion, pakeha, that I would back away from my assertion about dating because of my non-answering Meadmaker’s responses immediately. I still believe that Ama’s revelation that Jesus was crucified on August 17 is true and correct. I am still preparing my answers to Meadmaker’s three responses. Which do you think is more logically correct: my findings or Meadmaker’s assertion?

Leaving aside the rudeness at describing Meadmaker's careful explanations of history as "assertions", let us look at the evidence.

Meadmaker has evidence from history.

You have evidence from the ramblings of a blind woman in the Philippines who has not shown to be correct about anything thus far.

None of the 19 so called predictions has come true, except where they are so general as to be a mere restatement of the current status quo.
Angelina Imden is fictional, as is Renelinyindi. The Olympic Games passed off without incident. Ka Apaz channelling 'Ama' has a 100% record of being wrong; why would you think we should take anything s/he says as being true, particularly when s/he makes claims that are at odds with recorded history?

 

[Agatha]

@Meadmaker, #408

What is being dedicated in the celebration of Hanukkah? Isn’t it the First Temple that king Solomon built? 1 Kings 8:2 states: “And all the men of Israel assembled themselves unto king Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.” What feast was this? Leviticus 23:34 states: “Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the Lord.” So king Solomon held the dedication of the First Temple during the Feast of Tabernacles on the seventh month.

There are three feasts on the seventh month: Rosh Hashanah (New Year’s Day on the first), Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement on the tenth), and Sukkoth (Feast of Tabernacles from the fifteenth to the twenty-first). Which feast? I believe it is Sukkoth because this is what is stated in 1 Kings 8:65-66: “And at that time Solomon held a feast, and all Israel with him, a great congregation, from the entering in of Ha-math unto the river of Egypt, before the LORD our God, seven days and seven days, even fourteen days. On the eighth day, he sent the people away: and they blessed the king, and went unto their tents joyful and glad of heart for all the goodness that the LORD had done for David his servant, and for Israel his people.”

Also in 2 Chronicles 7:8-10: “Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him; a very great congregation, from the entering in of Ha-math unto the river of Egypt. And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly; for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days. And on the three and twentieth day of the seventh month he sent the people away into their tents, glad and merry in heart for the goodness that the LORD had showed unto David, and to Solomon, and to Israel his people.”

None of this answers Meadmaker's question, which was asking you to show that Hannukah has ever been celebrated on the 15th day of the 7th month. You have shown that Sukkoth is celebrated on that day; we already knew that. Sukkoth and Hannukah are different festivals. You appear to be suggesting that at one time they were the same festival, which is incorrect.

 

[Meadmaker]

@Meadmaker, #408

What is being dedicated in the celebration of Hanukkah? Isn’t it the First Temple that king Solomon built?

No. At least not according to the "conventional" history.


You have correctly shown that the dedication of the altar by Solomon was, in all probability, at Sukkoth. However, Sukkoth was celebrated before the dedication of the altar. Sukkoth continued to be celebrated after the dedication of the altar. Sukkoth was not a feast of dedication. When Solomon wanted to dedicate the altar, he did so during an existing festival.

The actual feast of dedication came about in this way. During the Maccabees' rebellion, Jerusalem was conquered by the rebels and the Temple had been profaned. A statue of Zeus was in there, and it wasn't generally used. The altar had been used by worshippers of the Greek gods, so the Jews decided it had been profaned. They destroyed it, and built a new one. By the time they were all ready, they decided they needed a new festival to rededicate their shiny new altar and refurbished temple. They decided to hold the festival on the 25th of Kislev.

That date had a couple of worthwhile reasons to recommend it. First, according to the Book of Maccabees, that was the anniversary of the date on which the altar had been desecrated by the Zeus worshippers. It was also somehow related to relighting the altar fire by Nehemiha. (To be honest, I don't know how. A quick skim of the Book of Nehemiah didn't find a reference.) At any rate, on 25 Kislev, the festival began, and lasted for eight days. Judah, the leader of the Maccabees, decreed that the rededication should be celebrated forever after on the 25 of Kislev.

The only connection with Sukkot is that many people believe that the war had prevented the rebels from properly celebrating Sukkot, so the eight days of the new festival were a belated celebration of Sukkot.

Interestingly enough, you have referred to the Feast of Dedication reference in the New Testament several times. You might be interested to know what word is actually used in the Greek. The word is,

ta engkainia

which does not mean "dedication". It means "renewal".

 

[Meadmaker]

The first chapter of the second book of Maccabees explains a bit more about the Sukkot and Nehemiah connections.