Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

I somewhat doubt that. Right wing sites have been more than happy to smear Martin based on laughable evidence and to push the "scary black guy" theme, and they've already done so. There's no need for O'Mara to involve himself in that.

Well, by "media" I meant mainstream media. Not whacko right wing websites like The Conservative Treehouse. No one paid much attention to their inane "purple lean" theories.

However, if O'Mara uncovers some damning bit of evidence about Martin in his schools records, every legitimate media outlet in the country will carry it. And O'Mara knows it.

For the moment, O'Mara looks like a competent attorney. He's looking for evidence to bolster his client's self-defense claim, and he's looking in the most obvious place for evidence that martin was violent. And that's only established via official school records, rather than through rumors leaked to the media.

It seems like he'll find nothing relevant, but he might, and Zimmerman does deserve a strong defense. And if Martin actually does have a history of starting violence (as opposed to the history of rap quotes and gold fronts that the right-wing race-baiters like to push) then that should be brought up. I don't personally think it helps, given that Zimmerman decided to pursue a fleeing Martin, but he does deserve a fair hearing.

Zimmerman certainly deserves a vigorous defense, but I just don't see a legal advantage here. Unless Martin is revealed to be some kind of super-violent maniac, the best case scenario O'Mara can hope for is a wash. His client already has an established history of violence - not to mention the bigoted statements on his MySpace page and allegations of sexual assault.

If O'Mara can't find anything on Martin that rises above the level of seriousness we've seen already unearthed about Zimmerman - and does anyone really think that he will? - there's really no point to it from a legal perspective.

And O'Mara is smart enough know to that. He's also proven himself quite media-savvy. He has seen his client get dragged through the mud, and I think now he wants to turn the tables.

 

[Alt+F4]

What will be found in all this discover? Maybe some school fights, truancy, bad grades, a bit of marijuana possession. But how is this any different than the average teenage boy these days? I'm not saying it's the best but it's no different than millions of other kids.

 

[quadraginta]

I wouldn't say "GZ has a good case" so much as "there just doesn't appear to be enough evidence to support a conviction beyond reasonable doubt".

I'd agree with that. Something is shady as **** with him, but there's not enough evidence, IMO, to think that he deserves a long prison sentence.

He shouldn't be allowed any firearms, or a CWP for quite some time though.
He seems like a loose cannon.

I'm not sure how that would work.

If he isn't found guilty of anything then what basis would there be to curtail his rights under FL law to own or carry a firearm?

The flip side of having acted improperly is having acted properly. Without a conviction he has done nothing to deserve censure. Quite the opposite, he exercised his rights as they were meant to be. The explicit intent of the laws which govern the possession and use of a personal firearm.

Yes, I know that is a very binary way to look at it, but the law is pretty much binary in this regard, isn't it?

 

[quadraginta]

Well, by "media" I meant mainstream media. Not whacko right wing websites like The Conservative Treehouse. No one paid much attention to their inane "purple lean" theories.

However, if O'Mara uncovers some damning bit of evidence about Martin in his schools records, every legitimate media outlet in the country will carry it. And O'Mara knows it.



Zimmerman certainly deserves a vigorous defense, but I just don't see a legal advantage here. Unless Martin is revealed to be some kind of super-violent maniac, the best case scenario O'Mara can hope for is a wash. His client already has an established history of violence - not to mention the bigoted statements on his MySpace page and allegations of sexual assault.

If O'Mara can't find anything on Martin that rises above the level of seriousness we've seen already unearthed about Zimmerman - and does anyone really think that he will? - there's really no point to it from a legal perspective.

And O'Mara is smart enough know to that. He's also proven himself quite media-savvy. He has seen his client get dragged through the mud, and I think now he wants to turn the tables.

There's no real downside either. At least not from O'Mara's perspective. If he gets the stuff and there's nothing there he's no worse off. If he doesn't get it he can insinuate that something is being hidden.

And who knows ... maybe the horse will sing.

 

[Cylinder]

Zimmerman team asks court to intervene on discovery

It seems that the state has some 'splainin to do. Among the allegations:

FDLE evidence analyst Steve Brenton had examined Martin's phone for the SAO. Don West alledges that they learned of this fact quite by accident - they were examining evidence when Brendon walked into the room and commented off-hand that he never was able to recover certain information due to the lost password. Brenton was subsequently listed as a Catagory C witness but never identified as an analyst or was disclosed as having examined Martin's phone. The defense claims that another request was submitted for any reports made which led the state to produce a CDROM with some files but no reports. During his recent deposition, Brenton testified that he had examined the phone, photagraphed his work, recovered files, prepared a report and forwarded these items to FDLE investigators. The report was completed on March 26 but not given to the defense until September 26 and was handed over by the analyst - not the state - which hasn't yet acknowledged its existence according to the motion.

The other issue is the inteview conducted by Team Crump with DeeDee - the witness that was on the phone with Martin shortly before the shooting. I'll have to find a link to it, it's not been widely distrubted because it's unintelligible due to sound quality. The problem is that the recording given to ABC News is broadcast quality.

Apparently the state has yet to provide actual copies of the photos taken by W13 and SPD directly after the shooting. The B&W photocopy products they have are the same as in the discovery packet.

Not mentioned by name in the discovery request is the missing toxicology report. The ME clearly took sample blood in a cassette to be tested off-site, but no report has been released at least publicly in discovery. They do include a summary of the THC findings but that appears to have been done by the ME themselves or they would have included the specifics.

West also correctly points out to the court that the state has witheld strongly exculpatory evidence in the form of W6 diagrams for over five months and in the face of repeated discovery demands.

In the same motion, West announces his intention to depose the Scheme Team - Crump, Julian and Jackson - in regards to there interaction with state's witnesses.

 

[Cylinder]

There's no real downside either. At least not from O'Mara's perspective. If he gets the stuff and there's nothing there he's no worse off. If he doesn't get it he can insinuate that something is being hidden.

And who knows ... maybe the horse will sing.

There is that whole thing where a bunch of white guys said a couple of hundred years ago that it might be a good idea for Zimmerman to have access to those records.

 

[WildCat]

Like I said earlier, that is all about as likely as the prosecution finding evidence that M acted in self defense.

I'm not sure why one side of the coin sounds silly to some of you but the other side sounds completely reasonable.

None of it has any bearing on who attacked first that night.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the prosecution will bring up Martn's character at some point, and if the defensxe didn't prepare for that possibility they would be derelict in their duty to defend their client.

 

[Cylinder]

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the prosecution will bring up Martn's character at some point, and if the defensxe didn't prepare for that possibility they would be derelict in their duty to defend their client.

For claims of self defense, Florida rules of evidence allow the defendant to introduce evidence of the peacefulness of the victim even without the issue being raised by the state.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Zimmerman team asks court to intervene on discovery

It seems that the state has some 'splainin to do. Among the allegations:

FDLE evidence analyst Steve Brenton had examined Martin's phone for the SAO. Don West alledges that they learned of this fact quite by accident - they were examining evidence when Brendon walked into the room and commented off-hand that he never was able to recover certain information due to the lost password. Brenton was subsequently listed as a Catagory C witness but never identified as an analyst or was disclosed as having examined Martin's phone. The defense claims that another request was submitted for any reports made which led the state to produce a CDROM with some files but no reports. During his recent deposition, Brenton testified that he had examined the phone, photagraphed his work, recovered files, prepared a report and forwarded these items to FDLE investigators. The report was completed on March 26 but not given to the defense until September 26 and was handed over by the analyst - not the state - which hasn't yet acknowledged its existence according to the motion.

The other issue is the inteview conducted by Team Crump with DeeDee - the witness that was on the phone with Martin shortly before the shooting. I'll have to find a link to it, it's not been widely distrubted because it's unintelligible due to sound quality. The problem is that the recording given to ABC News is broadcast quality.

Apparently the state has yet to provide actual copies of the photos taken by W13 and SPD directly after the shooting. The B&W photocopy products they have are the same as in the discovery packet.

Not mentioned by name in the discovery request is the missing toxicology report. The ME clearly took sample blood in a cassette to be tested off-site, but no report has been released at least publicly in discovery. They do include a summary of the THC findings but that appears to have been done by the ME themselves or they would have included the specifics.

West also correctly points out to the court that the state has witheld strongly exculpatory evidence in the form of W6 diagrams for over five months and in the face of repeated discovery demands.

In the same motion, West announces his intention to depose the Scheme Team - Crump, Julian and Jackson - in regards to there interaction with state's witnesses.

Witness 8 (deedee) audio available here:
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/peo...8-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/

Also curious to why we never saw an actual toxicology report.

 

[triforcharity]

I'm not sure how that would work.

If he isn't found guilty of anything then what basis would there be to curtail his rights under FL law to own or carry a firearm?

The flip side of having acted improperly is having acted properly. Without a conviction he has done nothing to deserve censure. Quite the opposite, he exercised his rights as they were meant to be. The explicit intent of the laws which govern the possession and use of a personal firearm.

Yes, I know that is a very binary way to look at it, but the law is pretty much binary in this regard, isn't it?

Yes, it is very binary, and you're right, our laws are supposed to be that way. Unfortunately, I see no legal reason, but my own personal opinion is he should not have one.

 

[quadraginta]

There is that whole thing where a bunch of white guys said a couple of hundred years ago that it might be a good idea for Zimmerman to have access to those records.

I get the impression that you intended this comment to be a meaningful reply to my post, but somehow the relevance escapes me.

Perhaps you could explain in greater depth?

 

[Cylinder]

I get the impression that you intended this comment to be a meaningful reply to my post, but somehow the relevance escapes me.

Perhaps you could explain in greater depth?

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

 

[quadraginta]

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

That's just an expansion of what you said before. It doesn't address the question I asked you at all.

I responded to a post by johnny karate where he wondered why O'Mara would subpoena those records. To wit,

...

Zimmerman certainly deserves a vigorous defense, but I just don't see a legal advantage here.
...

(highlighting mine)


He wasn't questioning the legal right to ask for them, or the legal right to receive them.

Neither did I.

Both of us were commenting on the possible motive for the request, not its legal justification.

Please explain how your comments in defense of that right are in any way germane either to my post or to his. This was the question I asked you.

 

[This is The End]

Trayvon's parents have launched a campaign against all SYG type laws that have no requirement to attempt to retreat (except for in your own home).

http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view...d-Your-Ground-Law?instance=home_news_1st_left

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...rayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-sybrina-fulton

 

[Cylinder]

Both of us were commenting on the possible motive for the request, not its legal justification.

Please explain how your comments in defense of that right are in any way germane either to my post or to his. This was the question I asked you.

The legal justification is the motive. It is MOM's duty to investigate Martin's history in light of Zimmerman's claims. In a similar instance, would you expect your attorney to look into your attacker's background?

 

[Wolrab]

Trayvon's parents have launched a campaign against all SYG type laws that have no requirement to attempt to retreat (except for in your own home).

By doing this, are they agreeing that TM attacked GZ? You don't have to stand your ground if you are not being attacked or threatened.

 

[Dan O.]

Trayvon's parents have launched a campaign against all SYG type laws that have no requirement to attempt to retreat (except for in your own home).

By doing this, are they agreeing that TM attacked GZ? You don't have to stand your ground if you are not being attacked or threatened.

How do you figure that? I support their position and I haven't attacked anyone. We don't need more idiots with guns looking for trouble.

 

[triforcharity]

Trayvon's parents have launched a campaign against all SYG type laws that have no requirement to attempt to retreat (except for in your own home).

http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view...d-Your-Ground-Law?instance=home_news_1st_left

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...rayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-sybrina-fulton

This will not go well. While I agree that there needs to be some additions, and some tweaking of the law to be more explicit, it's deep down a good law.

I shouldn't have to flee when accosted by a criminal.

 

[This is The End]

By doing this, are they agreeing that TM attacked GZ? You don't have to stand your ground if you are not being attacked or threatened.

Probably they see it as a loophole. Even in cases where the killer is lying. So, I assume, they believe that in this case Z is lying and using self defense as an out.

 

[This is The End]

Tentative date for the start of the trial:

In her first hearing since taking over the case, Judge Debra S. Nelson said June 10 would be the start of George Zimmerman’s trial, though the date could change as both sides get prepared for what is expected to be a three-week trial.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...c5e116-185a-11e2-a346-f24efc680b8d_story.html