Julian Assange: rapist or not?

[PhantomWolf]

They would have. Attacking NK in revenge for three thousand deaths, and knowing that millions of your allies would die. The US wouldn't do that, although it appears there are people who think it would.

Starting two wars that left millions of Iraqis and Afahanis dead, acceptable.
Starting one war that could leave millions of koreans dead, unacceptable.

Okaaaaaaaay.....

 

[theprestige]

Starting two wars that left millions of Iraqis and Afahanis dead, acceptable.

I doubt if there are two million Iraqis and Afghanis whose deaths are directly attributable to wars "started" by coalitions that include the US.

But amuse me: Total up every single indirect death from these wars. How many is it?

 

[a_unique_person]

Starting two wars that left millions of Iraqis and Afahanis dead, acceptable.
Starting one war that could leave millions of koreans dead, unacceptable.

Okaaaaaaaay.....

Now you are off an a different tangent. The South Koreans are allies, that is what I was talking about.

 

[John Albert]

So instead of protesting what they believe to be a bogus extradition to Sweden, they are supporting a legitimate extradition to Sweden, on the condition that their conspiracy theory about US persecution of Assange is taken seriously by the Swedish authorities.

Conspiracy theory?

Do you seriously doubt that Sweden would extradite him to the US, given the chance?

If Assange has committed crimes against the US, should he not stand trial for those crimes?

What crimes?

Do the victims of those crimes not have rights as well, that should be equally safeguarded by due process and rule of law?

What victims?

Is Assange behaving anything other than dickishly, by holding one person's rights hostage against the just exercise of another person's rights?

Whose rights is he "holding hostage"?

 

[WildCat]

Starting two wars that left millions of Iraqis and Afahanis dead, acceptable.

Where did you get those ridiculous numbers?

 

[WildCat]

Conspiracy theory?

Do you seriously doubt that Sweden would extradite him to the US, given the chance?

Extradited for what?

Whose rights is he "holding hostage"?

The women alleging rape. Do rape victims have rights?

 

[theprestige]

Conspiracy theory?

Pretty much.

Do you seriously doubt that Sweden would extradite him to the US, given the chance?

"Given the chance"?

I don't doubt for a moment that Sweden would extradite Assange to anybody who asked, given a reason to do so that satisifed Swedish law.

Is that the question you had in mind?

Has anybody actually asked? Have any satisfactory reasons been given? No? Then it's not really an issue, is it?

That's what makes it a conspiracy theory. Assange--and AI (and, apparently, you)--has invented a problem that doesn't actually exist, and is using it as an excuse to avoid solving the problem that does actually exist.

What crimes? What victims? Whose rights is he "holding hostage"?

Well, that's kind of the point: The US hasn't accused Assange of any crimes, or named any victims.

But even so, Assange is demanding that Sweden give him unlimited protection for any crimes he may be accused of in the future. He's demanding that Sweden repudiate the rights of any victims that might be named in the future.

And he's demanding these things as a precondition to cooperating with Sweden in their investigation of crimes he's already been accused of, and as a precondition to respecting and upholding the rights of the victims of those crimes.

 

[Korren]

Conspiracy theory?

Do you seriously doubt that Sweden would extradite him to the US, given the chance?

Given that Assange was in Swedish custody, and that the USA charged Assange with a crime, and the USA sought Assange extradited from Sweden, and Sweden found USA's case to be reasonable, and Sweden found that the charges would constitute a crime under Swedish law as well, and the USA could guarantee that the death penalty was not possible, and the United Kingdom gave its permission for the extradition to proceed, and the Swedish legal case against Assange had been concluded, and Assange had finished served any Swedish jail sentence he might have been given, then yes, Sweden would probably extradite him to the USA.

Otherwise, no, they wouldn't.

 

[Noztradamus]

Where did you get those ridiculous numbers?

Two(2) wars is is fact the correct number.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Given that Assange was in Swedish custody, and that the USA charged Assange with a crime, and the USA sought Assange extradited from Sweden, and Sweden found USA's case to be reasonable, and Sweden found that the charges would constitute a crime under Swedish law as well, and the USA could guarantee that the death penalty was not possible, and the United Kingdom gave its permission for the extradition to proceed, and the Swedish legal case against Assange had been concluded, and Assange had finished served any Swedish jail sentence he might have been given, then yes, Sweden would probably extradite him to the USA.

Otherwise, no, they wouldn't.

And here is Sweden officially saying exactly that back in August:

[...]
Sweden has an independent judiciary and, if the issue were to arise, any request for extradition would be handled in accordance with Swedish laws. Swedish legislation does not foresee the possibility of issuing guarantees that extradition will not take place.

Let me take this opportunity to clarify a few relevant points regarding Swedish legislation. Swedish law, the European Convention on Human Rights and Sweden's extradition agreement with the United States all state that Sweden is not allowed to extradite a person at risk of capital punishment. The offences that the person is accused of must also be punishable under Swedish law. The Extradition Act also includes grounds for refusal of extradition, such as political or military offences and situations in which the person who is extradited is at risk of persecution. If the person sought does not consent to the extradition, the request for extradition is examined by Sweden's Supreme Court before a final decision on extradition is made.

Moreover, Sweden is obliged to obtain the consent of the transferring State - in this case, the UK - in order to be able to re-extradite the surrendered person to a third state.

Sweden is bound by its international law obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights not to extradite any person at risk of capital punishment or inhuman treatment. These undertakings under the European Convention are also Swedish law.

In the hypothetical event of an extradition request being received, all the legal guarantees under Swedish law and Swedish obligations under international law will be respected fully.
[...]

 

[theprestige]

John Albert, I'm pretty sure nobody believes Sweden will extradite Assange to the US, "given the chance", including Amnesty International and Assange himself.

Do you want to try again?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Where did you get those ridiculous numbers?

There are a number of sources giving over 1 million deaths in just Iraq due to the invasion, for instance JFP puts the figure for death by all sources at 1.45 million.

Now I'm sure this is where you point to IBC and their number of 100-140k, however before you try that one, remember that IBC only counts a very select subset of deaths. Those of Civillians who have died in a violent manner and have had their deaths reported in the media. They don't record military, paramilitary, police, insurgent deaths. Nor do they count those that have died as a consequence of displacement, starvation, disease, exposure, or lack of medical treatment. They fail to record violent civilian deaths which aren't reported by the news as well.

Looking at other wars we find that the real civillian death toll can easily be 6-8 times those killed purely by military action or violence. Add in the military/paramilitary/police deaths, and you are getting very large number, and that is just for Iraq alone.

 

[BenBurch]

Given that Assange was in Swedish custody, and that the USA charged Assange with a crime, and the USA sought Assange extradited from Sweden, and Sweden found USA's case to be reasonable, and Sweden found that the charges would constitute a crime under Swedish law as well, and the USA could guarantee that the death penalty was not possible, and the United Kingdom gave its permission for the extradition to proceed, and the Swedish legal case against Assange had been concluded, and Assange had finished served any Swedish jail sentence he might have been given, then yes, Sweden would probably extradite him to the USA.

Otherwise, no, they wouldn't.

You forgot about the EU where there would be additional appeals.

 

[BenBurch]

Did you ever consider that this thing could go down like Jarndyce v Jarndyce?

 

[WildCat]

There are a number of sources giving over 1 million deaths in just Iraq due to the invasion, for instance JFP puts the figure for death by all sources at 1.45 million.

Those numbers are absolute nonsense.

 

[dc1971]

giggle .. he he he.... "Pantsganisan"

I love Australia!

 

[dc1971]

Those numbers are absolute nonsense.

So why don't you go over to Iraq and find out for yourself?

(and **** the 18 seconds, moderators)

 

[PhantomWolf]

Those numbers are absolute nonsense.

And your evidence for that is?

 

[Alt+F4]

There are a number of sources giving over 1 million deaths in just Iraq due to the invasion, for instance JFP puts the figure for death by all sources at 1.45 million.

Source please.

 

[theprestige]

There are a number of sources giving over 1 million deaths in just Iraq due to the invasion, for instance JFP puts the figure for death by all sources at 1.45 million.

Source please.

As much as I would like to see PW support his claims with evidence; and as much as I'd like to see a lively debate about war casualty numbers theoretical, actual, and conspiratorial... This is sooo not the thread for it.