On Consciousness

[Anders Lindman]

Sorry, the Pear work has been soundly debunked as bad science. If this worked, Randi's million would already be claimed.

Has the specific paper I posted been debunked? It's incorrect to group a whole bunch of separate experiments together and then claim that they all have been debunked just because some experiments have been debunked.

 

[Anders Lindman]

If this worked, Randi's million would already be claimed.

Isn't Randi's prize about paranormal things? I don't see anything paranormal with measuring the effect of consciousness on electronic devices. It's simply about ordinary scientific experiments with collection of measured data etc.

 

[Anders Lindman]

"Operator-Related Anomalies in a Random Mechanical Cascade

Abstract—Experiments with a "Random Mechanical Cascade" (RMC) apparatus have yielded anomalous results correlated with pre-stated intentions of human operators. Based upon a common statistical demonstration device, this machine allows 9000 polystyrene balls to drop through a matrix of 330 pegs, scattering them into 19 collecting bins with a population distribution that is approximately Gaussian. As the balls enter the bins, exact counts are accumulated photoelectrically, displayed as feedback for the operator, and recorded on-line. Operators attempt to shift the mean of the developing distributions to the right or left, relative to a concurrently generated baseline distribution. Of the 25 operators who have completed one or more experimental series with this device, four have achieved anomalous separations of their right and left efforts, and two others have displayed significant separations of either their right or left efforts from their baselines." -- http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/1988-operator-related-anomalies-rmc.pdf

Whoops! On a second thought, this doesn't show anything about consciousness as I have defined it. I'm aware of my thoughts. That awareness is consciousness, not the thoughts that I am aware of. And so if for example the mind can through thought focus an electromagnetic field in such a way that it affects the outcome of electronic random generators, then that is indeed evidence of the power of the mind, but it doesn't show anything about consciousness in the sense of a state of being aware.

 

[Dancing David]

Isn't gravity connected to everything in the universe? Isn't space connected to everything in the universe? Is there anything that is really separate? I heard that electric fields are actually infinite in size although their effect becomes very small at large distances. So what, then, IS, actually totally separate?

No. my interaction with Alpha Centauri are always four years away. No matter what, the speed of light limits all.

So I can't interact with the other side of the universe.

 

[Anders Lindman]

No. my interaction with Alpha Centauri are always four years away. No matter what, the speed of light limits all.

So I can't interact with the other side of the universe.

All particles are non-locally entangled since the Big Bang, so there is instant connection to Apha Centauri.

Space is of course separate points, but what holds reality together, including space, as a single unit? Maybe consciousness! Consciousness could be the 'glue' that binds the universe together.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Has the specific paper I posted been debunked? It's incorrect to group a whole bunch of separate experiments together and then claim that they all have been debunked just because some experiments have been debunked.

The Pear work has been discussed on the forum at length in the past. I suggest you look up older threads, and start a new thread if you think it would be helpful.

It's a derail for a thread on consciousness.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Isn't Randi's prize about paranormal things? I don't see anything paranormal with measuring the effect of consciousness on electronic devices. It's simply about ordinary scientific experiments with collection of measured data etc.

Randi's Million Dollar Challenge will test a claim of psychokinesis (matter affected by the mind/willpower alone), which the study you cite claims. There's a forum category for discussions about the challenge. If you think you have this power, then go for your million.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Randi's Million Dollar Challenge will test a claim of psychokinesis (matter affected by the mind/willpower alone), which the study you cite claims. There's a forum category for discussions about the challenge. If you think you have this power, then go for your million.

Ok, but as I mentioned (on a second thought), my quote is not relevant to consciousness.

 

[Dancing David]

All particles are non-locally entangled since the Big Bang, so there is instant connection to Apha Centauri.

Space is of course separate points, but what holds reality together, including space, as a single unit? Maybe consciousness! Consciousness could be the 'glue' that binds the universe together.

Wrong Anders, as usual you just make stuff up. My partcicles have not existed since the big bang, nor have the particles of Alpha Centauri.

So they were not entangled in the BBe

 

[Anders Lindman]

Wrong Anders, as usual you just make stuff up. My partcicles have not existed since the big bang, nor have the particles of Alpha Centauri.

So they were not entangled in the BBe

I believe everything is non-locally interconnected.

 

[Zeuzzz]

This thread is like witnessing a textbook of logical scientific knowledge argue with the creative works of JRR. Tolkiens the Lord of the Rings.

Literally.

Like on every page.

Ironically the same consciousness created the imaginary and the logic; that they are separate beasts is an illusion.

Connected. Yet diametrically opposed.

Like Twins that don't get on with each other.

 

[steenkh]

Connected. Yet diametrically opposed.

Yup, the twins that always slug it out in these pages: woo-woo and skepticism.

 

[quarky]

A single particle solves these dichotomies, but its a stretch for the imagination.

 

[!Kaggen]

Yup, the twins that always slug it out in these pages: woo-woo and skepticism.

Yes yes being skeptical of claims of the woo-woo of "conscience computers" without physical evidence but by simply redefining consciousness and computers is what this and all the other threads on consciousness are all about.

 

[steenkh]

Yes yes being skeptical of claims of the woo-woo of "conscience computers" without physical evidence but by simply redefining consciousness and computers is what this and all the other threads on consciousness are all about.

I am not arguing that consciousness is implemented in a certain way in biology, but that consciousness cannot do anything that computers cannot do in theory.

Furthermore, I am arguing that the null hypothesis is that dualism is false, and that it is you who needs to show evidence that it is not, or you need to show that your ideas are not representative of dualism. Reference to quantum particles and the interconnectedness of everything is not enough.

 

[!Kaggen]

I am not arguing that consciousness is implemented in a certain way in biology, but that consciousness cannot do anything that computers cannot do in theory.

Furthermore, I am arguing that the null hypothesis is that dualism is false, and that it is you who needs to show evidence that it is not, or you need to show that your ideas are not representative of dualism. Reference to quantum particles and the interconnectedness of everything is not enough.

Theories are all very well the question is:

Is your theory falsifiable without redefining conscious to be synonymous with computing?

Is there any evidence that computers are conscious without redefining consciousness to be synonymous with computing?

 

[Dancing David]

That depends, define consciousness, and don't be vague.

BTW: I believe that computers may be conscious someday, not at this time.

 

[dlorde]

All particles are non-locally entangled since the Big Bang, so there is instant connection to Apha Centauri.

So what? Any interaction disrupts (or broadens) the entanglement, so there is no way it can instantly communicate information.

Space is of course separate points

Evidence?

... what holds reality together, including space, as a single unit?

What evidence suggests that reality is a 'single unit' - what does that mean? What evidence is there that it needs to be 'held together'?

Maybe consciousness! Consciousness could be the 'glue' that binds the universe together.

Maybe not.

 

[dlorde]

A single particle solves these dichotomies, but its a stretch for the imagination.

It's a stretch because it doesn't work - as Feynman discovered.

 

[portlandatheist]

Theories are all very well the question is:

Is your theory falsifiable without redefining conscious to be synonymous with computing?

Is there any evidence that computers are conscious without redefining consciousness to be synonymous with computing?

My brain is conscious and its a computer. Put another way, I'm a machine and I am conscious. If some super alien species had the ability to build me from scratch, wouldn't it also be conscious? Are you arguing for dualism?