Impossible, They flew as fast as they could,true,"in the air before the radar kicked in","full blower all the way","I was supersonic","I don't know what I could have done to get there any quicker" BUT Otis AFB is only 153 miles from NYC and even by the admission of an Otis spokeswoman an F15 can make it there in 10-12 minutes yet according to the Commission at 9:03 (8:52-9:03=11 minutes) they were still 100 miles out! Never mind they weren't put into holding until 9:08. There's no way they wouldn't have make NYC UNLESS the holding pattern came before 9:03 & the Commission covered it up.
What's your theory about 9/11?
- Thread starter carlitos
- Start date
Impossible, They flew as fast as they could,true,"in the air before the radar kicked in","full blower all the way","I was supersonic","I don't know what I could have done to get there any quicker" BUT Otis AFB is only 153 miles from NYC and even by the admission of an Otis spokeswoman an F15 can make it there in 10-12 minutes yet according to the Commission at 9:03 (8:52-9:03=11 minutes) they were still 100 miles out! Never mind they weren't put into holding until 9:08. There's no way they wouldn't have make NYC UNLESS the holding pattern came before 9:03 & the Commission covered it up.
? You make no sense, and have no theory. You presented a bunch of junk and never made a conclusion.
Why can't the SOF fly, why is that a part of your fuzzy non-theory nonsense?
Why do you say 11 was off RADAR? Can you retract that? Simple Internet search debunks your claims.
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The Platypus
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2009
- Messages
- 1,883
Snake oil salesmen never do.
wait a minute,I'm not saying 11 was off radar. They were tracking it UNTIL it hit WTC1. I don't deny that. In fact I could even find a quote from an ATC (from memory) Mary Hodgskins? who says she watched it all the way down,but then some 30+ minutes later a false report comes in that it's still in the air. I'm asking how they could know that it was 11? And SPECULATING that even IF there had been a primary return some 30+ minutes later (IF) they could not have known it was flight 11. I think that was a misunderstanding .
Now,for the other:“we launched the aircraft out of Langley to put them over top of Washington, DC, not in response to American Airline 77, but really to put them in position in case United 93 were to head that way.” [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003-Quote Gen Larry Arnold]. Problem? Langley launch order was given at 9:24 [911 report 6/17/04] BUT 93 wasn't hijacked until AFTER 9:27 [911 report 1/27/04]
OK,so where did General Arnold get this information about Flight 93? It WASN'T the FAA because the NORAD tapes prove that NEADS wasn't notified by them about Flight 93 until 10:07 (after it had crashed). So,more: "GEN. ARNOLD: It was our intent to intercept United
Flight 93. And in fact my own staff, we were ORBITING now over
Washington, D.C. by this time, and I was personally anxious to
see what 93 was going to do, and our intent was to intercept it.
But we decided to stay over Washington, D.C., because there was
not that urgency."
So,long before FAA notification (10:07) General Arnold is receiving tracking data (he knows about 93) from his staff in an aircraft orbiting Washington & the only aircraft orbiting Washington at that very time is an E4-B Doomsday plane from which the entire US Government can be ran and which are connected to BOTH FAA & NORAD's tracking systems. So,where was this tracking data coming from then? We know it's NOT the FAA.
Alright,enlighten me. I came here to vet my theory because this is where "911 conspiracy theories come to die". So, according to my theory Borgstrum's absence on the ground (no SOF) resulted in a SOP (due to incomplete mission orders that a SOF would have questioned) scramble that sent the fighters FARTHER away from Washington DC & also ensured that the pilots didn't get word of Flight 77 approaching Washington from the South West (because the SOF would have been communicating with civilian ATC). Alright,that's my theory,kill it. Prove me wrong.
Wow, no theory, no conclusion. You have junk. When you connect the dots, your junk, you get nothing.
Is there a tracking RADAR on an E4B? What are you talking about?
So you have an E4B which directs building interstate highways? You said it can run the run the US government.
Sorry, the US Government can not be run from an E4B, only congress, the President, and the Courts can RUN the country. How do you fit congress in one E4B to run the country?
Why does a "doomsday" plane need FAA tracking systems? Does the FAA track ICBM missiles, or bombers coming over the pole? Is the Doomsday plane going to shoot down airliners to stop the WWIII? Do you know what command and control is? A pain in the butt.
If you mention the E4B again, please explain how it fits in your non-theory, no conclusion version of 911? What is your overall conclusion? You never made a coherent statement about your theory, in order to understand your theory.
Redo?
So far, you have gathered junk about nothing but the foggy part of 911, the confusion, and turned that information into nothing of value.
What time did Gen Arnold get in the E4B? Where did he get on? What time? How does this tie into your theory which you never made clear?
What is your conclusion, and theory? Like, it was an inside job, or what? Were there 19 terrorists?
Gen Arnold was given permission to shoot down 93, five minutes after 93 hit the ground. Does that check? Means all the Gen Arnold junk is too late.
NORAD was not looking inside the USA before 911. Please correct me if I am wrong. A big reason why Payne Stewart was not intercepted for Lost Comm by NORAD. Why was his plane not intercepted, SHOT-Down? Was there a stand down that day too?
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Hi FrankHT
You seem to be very knowledgeable about the air defence mechanism before the 911 attacks.
Could you answer one question for me.
Was their training based around watching an air strike appear from out side U.S air space or appear from within U.S air space.
Answers relating to before the 911 attacks please.
You seem to be very knowledgeable about the air defence mechanism before the 911 attacks.
Could you answer one question for me.
Was their training based around watching an air strike appear from out side U.S air space or appear from within U.S air space.
Answers relating to before the 911 attacks please.
The SOF would not direct where planes go; how does he know where to send planes? The SOF is responsible for the airfield, check the weather, make sure the runway is clear, but he does this along with tower, and air field managment. The SOF is there as a liason with the base and the pilots. If the SOF sees a problem he checks things out. His duties are not tracking hijacked aircraft or predicting where they will be in the future.
The SOF for fighters might be in the Tower, or sitting in base ops. Not much to do on 911, the weather was perfect, the winds light. The SOF would not have to worry about Wx diverts. The SOF might check range times and check the airspace, but how does the SOF know where ATC sends fighters? Fill me in.
How would the SOF know there was an unknown target coming into DC airspace? Who would tell him? Does his radio in his car/truck contact ATC? Line of sight?
What is your theory? You made no clear theory, or conclusion.
SOF? How would the SOF know DC was a target, did the terrorists tell him? How would anyone know it was 77? Hijacked, or what? ATC asked a C-130 to follow 77, but they had no clue who it was - why? You are taking what happened, and then think people knew about what was going to happen.
How can a fighter take off and wonder through airspace? What altitude is the target? Before 911 fighters on alert took-off when scrabbled to airspace over the ocean used by the military, air space where no traffic is allowed except military flights. Big areas which limit the paths into the USA. This is where it is safe for fast movers to go.
NORAD fighters would launch on planes off course approaching the USA, they did not launch and intercept planes over the USA.
Have you ever intercepted another plane? Do you know what a SOF does? Have you been a SOF? I have. Unless you can flesh out your theory, it makes no sense to include a SOF flying in your theory. What do you think it means? Please list the SOF duties, and how they fit in your theory, which you never explained, your theory is?
You have not made your theory clear.
The SOF. Weather becomes a big issue when you are SOF. On 911 a big reason to have a SOF is gone, wx was perfect. When things are going on and the people become aware as 175 impacted the WTC, we are being attacked, the SOF might be the first to know since he is stuck being SOF. The SOF might of recalled his planes from the Range, and called in all training flights. Once he had them coming "home", he would be free to launch. The SOF may of called key commanders, and arranged his own replacement. In my squadron we had over 40 SOFs, most mission ready pilots were SOFs. We had the duty for a day, we rotated day to day. Our bosses could be SOF for us. A squadron commander might say go fly now beachnut, I will take over. Then I go fly. BINGO...
My best SOF war story... We are launching from Maine to support the return of the SR-71 from England. The SR-71 is being retired - I was mission commander for tanker support from the FOB, we were TDY from Beale. I was in the command post watching weather, and it was okay... My crews were getting ready to launch, in 30 minutes, the SR-71 was taking off - we gave an all clear. Minutes later the weather in Maine crunched, low level clouds moved in, and lowered the RVR to mins for takeoff, my crew was young, not qualified for takeoff; my staff rushed me to the plane, as an IP my mins were lower, we could take off; the weather was bad, we had just told HQ we were go, but now...
I got in the aircraft, we taxied out. With my staff in the tower and command post, the weather was called at mins, we took off. The SR-71 needed our fuel to get home to Beale, and would be reaching north of Maine in an hour after he left England. It was important we got airborne or he would abort. As we cleaned up and climbed out, on Ch9 we heard the SOF complain we took off with Wx below minimum, we broke rules etc, yada yada yada. There was silence on company freq, then we heard the SOF ask command post to send out someone to get him out of a snow bank, he had crashed into a snow bank while complaining about the visibility being too low for takeoff, as we flew away to make good our RZ with the SR. SOF, safer when he is flying.
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"we used our very strained AWACs
aircraft, our warning aircraft that are used all over the world,
and Brigadier General Ben Robinson was stretched very thin, but
he continued to do what he could.
The United States Customs provided us with E-3s, with
radars that gave us coverage in other parts of the area. And,
as General McKinley alluded to, we were able to bring in units,
Air National Guard and active duty theater area control units,
units that are designed to be deployed, and integrate them into
our air picture, not only for air, but also for voice. So we
did a lot of things early on."[Quote-Gen.Larry Arnold 5/23/03]
So,we have AWACs,E-3s & E4-Bs all involved in tracking these aircraft and clear,repeated official statements of foreknowledge (Before FAA notification) from several (Arnold,Marr,Scott +) witnesses and you'll still maintain NORAD was completely dependent on the FAA for information? Really? Beyond a reasonable doubt NO ONE WILL BUY IT!
aircraft, our warning aircraft that are used all over the world,
and Brigadier General Ben Robinson was stretched very thin, but
he continued to do what he could.
The United States Customs provided us with E-3s, with
radars that gave us coverage in other parts of the area. And,
as General McKinley alluded to, we were able to bring in units,
Air National Guard and active duty theater area control units,
units that are designed to be deployed, and integrate them into
our air picture, not only for air, but also for voice. So we
did a lot of things early on."[Quote-Gen.Larry Arnold 5/23/03]
So,we have AWACs,E-3s & E4-Bs all involved in tracking these aircraft and clear,repeated official statements of foreknowledge (Before FAA notification) from several (Arnold,Marr,Scott +) witnesses and you'll still maintain NORAD was completely dependent on the FAA for information? Really? Beyond a reasonable doubt NO ONE WILL BUY IT!
Really, quote-mining taken to new levels of nonsense?
This is after all the planes crashed. Do you realize what you are posting?
Please stop the SPAM, I love flying and you are destroying all reality for yourself without knowing it.
You are debunking yourself due to, time and knowledge. logic, etc...
AWACs did not track 77, 93, 11, or 175. E-3s did not track 11, 175, 77, or 93. E4Bs did not track 77, 93, 175 or 11.
How do you make up this crazy stuff? By cherry-picking your quote-mining efforts. What is your theory?
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Yes,Arnold lied. In fact they considered referring him to the Justice Department. But what did he lie about? The involvement of these aircraft? Foreknowledge of 93? OR the capabilities of these aircraft at the time? His testimony of foreknowledge is confirmed by Marr & Scott are you going to call them all liars. They said what they said. Take this quote from William Scott before the 911 Commission for example: "The answer on AA77 is not easy, nor is it pretty. At the time AA77 was occurring we were focused on UAL93 which was the only confirmed hijack that the FAA had identified to us. My records show UAL93 reported as hijacked at 0916L, once we found it and identified it's [sic] westerly heading, we scrambled Langley at 0924L just in case it turned around toward DC, which it did later. (...) It takes a lot of time to explain the public that you are scrambling fighters against a plane heading away from the possible target."
Here 5 minutes in Google "duties Supervisor of flying" gives me this: "Constant communication with the air traffic controllers, the 2nd Operations Support Squadron and the aircrew about to take-off, enables the SOF to stay informed with up-to-date information to relay to the operations group commander.
"Any flying operations that go on throughout the day are monitored by either myself or whoever is currently in this position," said Maj. Matthew Pommer,"
"Any flying operations that go on throughout the day are monitored by either myself or whoever is currently in this position," said Maj. Matthew Pommer,"
You are using lies to support what?
You have no idea when Flight 93 was hijacked. So you quote-mine and make up nonsense.
More hearsay, and quote-mining. I now understand why you can't figure out 911, and make a coherent theory. You offer no theory, are you one of Balsamo's want to be pilots?
Please explain your theory, in the clear.
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Sometimes a SOF is in the tower. So? Like constant communication...
More quote-mining? This means, the SOF gets takeoff times, etc... oops, does not mean what you think it does, but then you are not a pilot, aircrew, or an ATC person. Darn, you are making up nonsense, open-loop.
I see your google, and raise you an AFI.
What about Guard? lol
You google your knowledge. Good for you. A graduate of Google U. You have a PhD.
I have more hours being a SOF, than you have spent researching 911.
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cjnewson88
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2011
- Messages
- 1,764
Frank, they had a board full of dozens of potential hijacked aircraft that morning, any transcontinental flights heading from north eastern US to California were suspect, UA93 may have been one, Delta 1989 was, there was a FED EX 757 which was suspected, an entire board stacked full which fitted the profile. At one stage Delta 1989 was 'confirmed' hijacked. Turn out to be false. Dozens of different people were tasked to keep an eye on these suspected flights. Doesn't mean the rest of the hundreds of people involved that day were fixated on those targets too, or the unknown primary target swooping down on DC.
My original reply still stands, you theory holds no water.
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First off,I didn't make it up. You know that. You Quoted the same source including the parts I choose not to. Now,as for your claim these aircraft were either not involved at all (in which case you can take it up with General Arnold whom we both Quoted) or were involved ONLY AFTER all the planes had crashed,for that I'll ask you for evidence. Got any?
At any rate,I've got clear,repeated statements of foreknowledge from several individuals. Either you're going to claim they're all lying or NORAD was tracking the planes themselves & the NORAD tapes are useless in telling what NEADS leadership knew & when they knew it. Which is it?
General Arnold was talking about AWACS being used as they became available, later in the day. After the crashes. Your source implies the same. You refuse to do real research, so you make it up. Arnold is talking big picture, later in the day.
No one at JREF takes the government story as what happen on 911, they take the facts and evidence. You are dead set on quote-mining junk without checking the times, or understanding what time things happened.
The only thing you can prove quote-mining the sources you googled, is Generals are full of BS. I already knew this in the 70s, and suspected it in the 60s.
NORAD did not track 11, 175, 77, or 93. Why would they, they were looking out before 911.
There are times when the planes were hijacked, and some General messing up the times are worthless information.
There are times NORAD/USAF/Military knew of the hijacking, or did not know, and times messed up by Generals, or anyone are worthless for making nonsense like you do.
What is your point?
Why did NORAD fail to intercept Payne Stewart's plane?
You are using mistakes as evidence of foreknowledge. Even if the General is telling lies about the times to make himself look better, it is not foreknowledge, it is called stupid. You are using hearsay to make up your theory, the theory which you can't explain.
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No,that's not true. I know that at 9:27 everything was fine & the pilot was still in communication with the tower & responsive. The hijacking must have occurred after that. Yet,the Langley scramble order was given at 9:24. If they're lies,there NOT mine (Arnold,Marr,Scott etc) I'm simply taking the word of the people actually running our air defenses. It's what THEY said.
What tower? Source please.
What we have here is nonsense. Frank thinks a General saying the wrong time means foreknowledge, when it means stupid. How can a general say "he" knew 93 was hijacked at 9:16, when the pilots were attacked at 1328:16, a fact. Where did the General get the time? A log, notes, made after the time, a mistake? Who knows, much of the General's testimony is hearsay, not from him, but logs or junk from his staff. How far removed is the original stuff? No need to chase this. I would pull the ATC tapes, end of story. Pulling ATC tapes, shows clearly 93 pilots attacked at 28:16 after the hour. I bet NORAD was not notified of 93 till after it crashed. That takes more... resreach... not to be done by 911 truth repeaters of woo.
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