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Bigfoot: The Patterson Gimlin Film - Part 3

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rockinkt
Thank you for providing a definition of a “footer"

I do not meet you definition of a “footer”

I consider myself a 'footer' but I don't fit that definition either. I think of a 'footer' as someone who has an interest in and/or participates in discussions about bigfoot, regardless of their belief.

What would it take for you?

The suit would pretty much be the nail in the coffin for me.

RayG
 
What would you consider a definitive solution? Everyone's standards are different. And you'll find plenty of people on both sides who feel that their standards have been met. They can't all be right, of course...

Kilaak:

That's a very fine question, and I thank you for asking it.

To me, a definitive solution would be an one which explains what we see in the film (is it real or fake, and why), explains how the film was taken or made (in the sense of what happened as the camera was running, was it staged or spontaneous), and explains any discrepancies between what people said and did, or between what two different people said.

That may be wishful thinking to hope such a solution is attainable, but to me, a problem which apparently can't be solved is one where there is a flaw in some foundation idea, and so re-examining the foundation is the starting point for that elusive solution.

Maybe we'll never have such a solution. I think it's worthy of some time to look for, though.

It is becomming apparent that my style of problem solving is somewhat against the grain (so to speak) with the way veterans of this forum discuss the topic. Sorry about that, but it's the only way I know how to try and understand a controversy, and this movie and what's in it is certainly controversial.

River:

I don't ignore evidence. I just don't rush to judge simply because another person points something out and expects an immediate endorsement. I have noted things you referenced, and consider what you say. But I also consider what others may say on these topics, before I try to form a judgment.

CB
 
CB...The biggest problem is that you refuse to read the threads that have debated and answered the questions you are asking.
Why don't you read the threads about the PGF on this forum instead of forcing us to cover ground that we have gone over ad nauseam?
Frankly, it gets a little boring having to answer the same questions over and over again from people who think that they are bringing something new to the table when they are just repeating the same old canards.
 
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Why do people clamor to produce a suit anyway? Do we have a suit specimen for any Bigfoot film ever? That includes the hordes of amateur Bigfoot productions on YouTube. We should make it a requirement for everyone who demands a Patty suit that must they also accept as valid every Bigfoot video on YouTube for which they cannot produce a suit.

I'm not asking for 'a' suit, I'm not asking for a suit from 'any' bigfoot film ever, and I'm not asking that 'every' (or even any) bigfoot video on youtube be accepted as valid until proven otherwise. I'm asking for 'the' suit. The one worn in the PGF. That's not exactly 'any' bigfoot film, it's the one many proponents hang their hat upon. It's the one still being analyzed and debated more than 40 years later no matter how useless that is.

As a skeptic, no matter how much I doubt bigfoot exists, I am willing to leave the possibility door open just a crack.

RayG
 
CB...The biggest problem is that you refuse to read the threads that have debated and answered the questions you are asking.
Why don't you read the threads about the PGF on this forum instead of forcing us to cover ground that we have gone over ad nauseam?
Frankly, it gets a little boring having to answer the same questions over and over again from people who think that they are bringing something new to the table when they are just repeating the same old canards.

That's funny that you seem to chastize me for asking a few questions when in reality most of my remarks were asking why people like you seem to say one thing and then say something to contridict yourself in another posting.

I would assume you really don't want me asking questions and are trying to bluff or bully me into submission.

Won't work. Sorry.

CB

ps: I believe this forum has some kind of "ignore" function. Feel free to use it with me if my remarks are so irritating.
 
That may be wishful thinking to hope such a solution is attainable, but to me, a problem which apparently can't be solved is one where there is a flaw in some foundation idea, and so re-examining the foundation is the starting point for that elusive solution.

Maybe we'll never have such a solution. I think it's worthy of some time to look for, though.

It is becomming apparent that my style of problem solving is somewhat against the grain (so to speak) with the way veterans of this forum discuss the topic. Sorry about that, but it's the only way I know how to try and understand a controversy, and this movie and what's in it is certainly controversial.

In going back to the foundation, it may be helpful to look at the controversy itself and not just the film. Why are we even discussing this film 40+ years later? Is the controversy fabricated?

That's a common topic in this thread and there are others devoted specifically to the marketing and commercialization of Bigfoot. Spend some time observing coverage of the PGF in mass media, and note how they devote the vast majority of airtime to the minority of experts who endorse the film, like Bill Munns, rather than the majority who do not. Have you been lead to believe that the film is a stronger piece of evidence than it really is? Are you being sold a false controversy?
 
I consider myself a 'footer' but I don't fit that definition either. I think of a 'footer' as someone who has an interest in and/or participates in discussions about bigfoot, regardless of their belief.



The suit would pretty much be the nail in the coffin for me.

RayG


Lets see what kit comes up with. Perhaps it will be "the one". I think it's a worthy goal for him to achieve if it's within grasp. For me personally, I've researched enough about this film (including being in possession of high resolutions scans of copy 8 walk sequence, and other select parts from Greens copy including all of the available track way footage.)

There are other tell tale issues about the film that point the hoax out. (other than Heironimus, et all and the footprint stuff) The "beard issue" is another entertaining issue to resolve as well as the "timeline" issues.

There has been much debate about the film certainly. I think some have created emotional attachments to the idea of bigfoot by either having their own "sighting or experiences". This is pretty much the ivory tower of bigfootery. Gimlin is touted as "such an honest man" and many other descriptions that will include something about how he would never lie. Yet Gimlin refuses to do an interview with himself and Heironimus in the same room. Heironimus has commented that he would do such an interview. Gimlin will not.

Gimlin told me personally that he shot the film of Patterson casting the tracks. The same film that proves the footprints were faked. Real honest guy...

Not much debate about the film being anything but a hoax from outside of that small subculture.
 
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I'm not asking for 'a' suit, I'm not asking for a suit from 'any' bigfoot film ever, and I'm not asking that 'every' (or even any) bigfoot video on youtube be accepted as valid until proven otherwise. I'm asking for 'the' suit. The one worn in the PGF. That's not exactly 'any' bigfoot film, it's the one many proponents hang their hat upon. It's the one still being analyzed and debated more than 40 years later no matter how useless that is.

It would be really exciting to find "the" suit and hopefully Kitakaze's lead comes to fruition. Would it be the final death knell for the PGF and Bigfootery in general? Probably not. But it would definitely turn some heads.

As a skeptic, no matter how much I doubt bigfoot exists, I am willing to leave the possibility door open just a crack.

Absolutely. If Bigfoot is ever proven to exist, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only former skeptic who'd be giddy with joy. I'm open to the possibility that the PGF shows a real Bigfoot, too. But at this point it's just not convincing me and unless there's some unforeseen revelation about the film on the horizon, it probably never will.
 
That's funny that you seem to chastize me for asking a few questions when in reality most of my remarks were asking why people like you seem to say one thing and then say something to contridict yourself in another posting.

I would assume you really don't want me asking questions and are trying to bluff or bully me into submission.

Won't work. Sorry.

CB

ps: I believe this forum has some kind of "ignore" function. Feel free to use it with me if my remarks are so irritating.

Are you referring to your post regarding "preponderance of evidence" and how you tried to pretend that that meant there was good evidence because I used that word?
I was just going to ignore that but it is apparent that you think you may have brought forward some sort of valid argument and you need to be disabused of that notion very quickly.

There is evidence on the "non-hoax" side; however, it is extremely poor and easily discredited by any thinking person.

There is the direct evidence of the two main hoaxers: Patterson & Gimlin. Their direct testimony is full of huge inconsistencies and they contradict each other and their own testimony numerous times.
The film itself could not have been developed in the timeline given.
Any reasonable person reviewing the testimony these charlatans made over the years would immediately brand them as liars. Their evidence is totally discredited.

The original film is not available for analysis. Since the original is not available - any analysis of the copies is moot as there is no way to show that it has not been altered from the original. Therefore, anything seen on the copies should be considered discredited evidence and useless for any factual discussion.
Not only that, there is nothing in the film that can be shown to be impossible for a human in a suit to replicate and the vast majority of FX people whose opinions are public state that it is obviously a human in a suit.

The tracks associated with the film could be considered circumstantial evidence except there is no way to directly link the tracks shown or cast with the actual thing that was filmed. Circumstantial evidence must deal with a fact from which a conjecture can made. Since there is no "fact" that ties the tracks to the supposed creature - it fails the test of circumstantial evidence and therefore is not evidence at all.

One need not go into all the various other things that point to a hoax as there is no need.

The evidence in favor of the film being legitimate is basically non-existent.
The evidence pointing to the film being a hoax is substantial.
Therefore, the preponderance of the evidence is for the film being a hoax.
 
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Patterson when asked would not even reveal where the film was processed.
 
Books from the 1970s and 80s refer to the Bluff Creek footage as the “Patterson Film”. Gimlin rarely gets a mention by name beyond simply being Patterson’s “Indian tracker”. When the film was being actively promoted, Gimlin was not involved and, indeed, was even substituted by Patterson for an actor in order to answer questions from the audience.

Does anyone (perhaps Kit) know:

When the “Patterson Film” became the “Patterson-Gimlin Film” and what prompted Bob Gimlin to suddenly (ie some 20-30 years after the fact) take ownership over his role in the film?

It's the people-stories around and behind the Bigfoot-stories that are often most interesting, insightful, and difficult to access...
 
Books from the 1970s and 80s refer to the Bluff Creek footage as the “Patterson Film”. Gimlin rarely gets a mention by name beyond simply being Patterson’s “Indian tracker”. When the film was being actively promoted, Gimlin was not involved and, indeed, was even substituted by Patterson for an actor in order to answer questions from the audience.

Does anyone (perhaps Kit) know:

When the “Patterson Film” became the “Patterson-Gimlin Film” and what prompted Bob Gimlin to suddenly (ie some 20-30 years after the fact) take ownership over his role in the film?

It's the people-stories around and behind the Bigfoot-stories that are often most interesting, insightful, and difficult to access...

Interesting. Gimlin seemed to drop out early on, only to come back years later as the darling of the Bigfoot public. This suggests (to me, anyway) that he may have anticipated the film to be exposed as a hoax. When that didn't happen and instead it was championed by the likes of Krantz and Meldrum, Gimlin decided to partake in the limelight (as such it is) of ascending Bigfoot interest.

The more recent revelations about Patterson's character (after decades of ignoring the issue by the Bigfoot pros) led, I think, to the re-dubbing of the film as the "PG". Meldrum favors Gimlin over Patterson in his SASQUATCH to the point of giving Gimlin an entire chapter: "The Wrangler and the Wildwoman: Bob Gimlin's Encounter with Bigfoot." This has to be seen as an attempt to deflect attention from the author of the film in order to clean up the film's reputation in light of the Long revelations. Also, it suggests, but only suggests, that Meldrum was attempting to so enshrine Gimlin in Bigfoot lore as to discourage Bob from recanting.
 
Bigfoot and specifically the PGF obviously bring joy to a lot of "good people with good hearts".

When Gimlin lies about the PGF being real he doesn't tell that lie in spite of being a gentleman otherwise. He tell the PGF lie because he is a gentleman.
 
I'm not asking for 'a' suit, I'm not asking for a suit from 'any' bigfoot film ever, and I'm not asking that 'every' (or even any) bigfoot video on youtube be accepted as valid until proven otherwise. I'm asking for 'the' suit. The one worn in the PGF. That's not exactly 'any' bigfoot film, it's the one many proponents hang their hat upon. It's the one still being analyzed and debated more than 40 years later no matter how useless that is.

As a skeptic, no matter how much I doubt bigfoot exists, I am willing to leave the possibility door open just a crack.

RayG

If somebody showed you a suit how would you know if it was the one used in the film? The film showed a man in a suit, that is all I need to know.
 
If somebody showed you a suit how would you know if it was the one used in the film? The film showed a man in a suit, that is all I need to know.

well kit says as soon as you look at it you can tell instantly its the pgf suit..so we shall all have to wait and see.
 
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