Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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Jabba,

Assuming you are serious, rather than pulling our leg, isn't it very impolite of you to ask posters to repost arguments and evidence that they aleady took the trouble and effort to provide to you? Look it up! It's in this very thread, and you could page through it in an hour, total! In fact there is a search function as well that could speed up your effort even more. If you are serious, and are spending 4 hours a day on this already, just start at page 1 with a pen and paper and write down what the skeptics have already provided to you multiple times. All posts are numbered, msking it extra easy. Don't be so impolite as to ask them to do it yet again.
 
The problem is he's not doing methodical research. I suspect he's been doing a lot of reading in the echo chamber of shroudie websites, and to him that counts as "research". In a way it is, for I often do a lot of reading on a topic that suddenly captures my attention. But I don't keep careful notes on every book I read and every website I visit. It can get frustrating later when I want to make a point on a topic that I've read up on in the past but can no longer find a reference that supports the point I want to make.

It's possible (but doubtful) that here Jabba will learn a few things about how to conduct good research and keep notes.

[aside]
Get Evernote I use Chrome with an Evernote plugin and then use Evernote itself to organise the pages I've selected. Best tool I've found for internet research but I'm sure there are others.
[/aside]


I'm sure that's all good advice. But in this particular case, Jabba does not need to keep track of anything except the simple fact that the C14 showed that the shroud is almost certainly circa.1260-1390AD.

The only other thing he needs to do (if he actually wanted to be honest with himself about the shroud), is to realise that all his so-called "evidence" against the C14 only ever comes from long time Christian shroud believers, and never from any independent scientists outside the circle of shroud belief.

He doesn't need to keep any organised notes to understand that.
 
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I'm sure that's all good advice. But in this particular case, Jabba does not need to keep track of anything except the simple fact that the C14 showed that the shroud is almost certainly circa.1260-1390AD.

The only other thing he needs to do (if he actually wanted to be honest with himself about the shroud), is to realise that all his so-called "evidence" against the C14 only ever comes from long time Christian shroud believers, and never from any independent scientists outside the circle of shroud belief.

He doesn't need to keep any organised notes to understand that.
True, perhaps, but the observation stands. Anyone who has spent as many long years and as many recent hours as Jabba claims to have done researching any subject but who is repeatedly unable to locate even the most basic reference is a poor researcher indeed and needs help.

I am interested to know what Christian magic will occur that will solve Jabba's organizational issues simply because we take the discussion to another board. Will all those hard-to-find references suddenly appear in logical order on his hard drive? Or perhaps it will be a cloud-based solution.
 
Evidence Against Catbon Dating/Refutations

- You guys claim that you have provided a bunch of proofs and refutations regarding this particular C14 dating.
- I would agree that you have provided some info that supports claims of C14 validity and weakens claims of invalidity, in this particular case -- but then, I disagree that you have provided info that proves C14 validity, or refutes C14 invalidity, in this case.
- Can you expect me to look for, and find, that which you think you've provided but I think you haven't?
--- Jabba
 
Excuses

- Just to let you know -- due to various events, I have not been able to devote 4 hrs a day to this project for the last few weeks...
- But no worries -- I should get back to my typical speed momentarily.
--- Jabba
 
- I would agree that you have provided some info that supports claims of C14 validity and weakens claims of invalidity, in this particular case -- but then, I disagree that you have provided info that proves C14 validity, or refutes C14 invalidity, in this case.
You have utterly failed to produce ANY valid refutations of the C14 dating. The BEST you have to offer is "Maybe it's an invisble patch that no one ever detected, made by some means no one knows"--ie, a flight of fancy.

If you want to know the validity of C14 dating, read "Isotopes: Principels and APplications", third edition, by Faure and Mensing (eds). Until you do that (or, obviously, the equivalent--other options have been given in this thread), you DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEM well enough to critique it.

- Can you expect me to look for, and find, that which you think you've provided but I think you haven't?
Yes. First, start by learning how C14 dating works. Until you do that, your opinions are irrelevant to this discussion. You're talking out of ignorance and expect to be taken seriously right now--which is rediculous, and grossly insulting to those of us who HAVE done the studying necessary to hold informed opinions on the subject. This stuff IS HARD, and you don't get to be taken seriously merely because you want to be.
 
Jabba, please explain;

1. How a patching technique that specifically uses threads from other parts of the original cloth can affect the C14 dating of that cloth.

2. How the presence of blood on other parts of a cloth can affect the C14 dating of a part that doesn't have blood on it.

3. How much contamination (and what sort it should be) is needed to change a C14 date from the 1st century to 14th century.

4. Why 3 independent labs is insufficient for a carbon dating protocol.

5. What is the probability that 3 independent, world class laboratories all made the same errors in performing a carbon dating test on the same sample cloth?


If you can't answer these questions in detail and with reference to source material then your arguments are invalid and you beliefs moot.
 
- You guys claim that you have provided a bunch of proofs and refutations regarding this particular C14 dating.
- I would agree that you have provided some info that supports claims of C14 validity and weakens claims of invalidity, in this particular case -- but then, I disagree that you have provided info that proves C14 validity, or refutes C14 invalidity, in this case.
- Can you expect me to look for, and find, that which you think you've provided but I think you haven't?
--- Jabba



I don’t think the above is true at all. It’s certainly not true of anything I’ve said. And I don’t recall anyone else saying the C14 was “proof” in the absolute sense that you are implying.

What I have said, and what others here have said to you (and you know this very well, because it's been explained to you dozens of times!), is that the C14 remains the one & only time that genuine independent properly conducted and properly published scientific dating has been carried out on the shroud. And it was done by three different labs who all got effectively identical results.

There are no other tests ever done on the shroud which are even remotely as powerful, accurate and properly accredited as that.

That's why the only honest thing to do is to accept that the C14 dates are almost certain to be correct.

The numerous ad hoc claims of other results, all come from well known Christian shroud fanatics, and none of their claims are ever properly published in genuine mainstream science research journals. Instead, those beliefs are all printed as 4th rate and amateur accounts in arenas as sloppy and worthless as the proceedings of their own shroud conferences!

If you want to discuss the possibility of blood on the shroud, then that's fine. As long as you do that accepting that the shroud almost certainly dates from 1260AD or later.

However, if on the other hand you want to claim that the shroud has blood stains dating from the 1st century, then you have to show a genuine science paper where a real independent relevant research scientist has published any such result. Other than that, it is quite worthless to make claims like that just by quoting fellow Christian shroud fanatics who can't get their beliefs genuinely published.
 
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- Just to let you know -- due to various events, I have not been able to devote 4 hrs a day to this project for the last few weeks...
- But no worries -- I should get back to my typical speed momentarily. --- Jabba

Sigh

You can't be serious. If you aren't trolling us, this has to be the most tragic comment yet
 
-
- I would agree that you have provided some info that supports claims of C14 validity and weakens claims of invalidity, in this particular case -- but then, I disagree that you have provided info that proves C14 validity, or refutes C14 invalidity, in this case.
- Can you expect me to look for, and find, that which you think you've provided but I think you haven't?..

Perhaps it would be simplest for you to post up the things you think refute the carbon 14 dating.
 
- You guys claim that you have provided a bunch of proofs and refutations regarding this particular C14 dating.
Not a "claim". This evidence has been provided, in this very thread. It is nobody else's fault if you ignore it.

- I would agree that you have provided some info that supports claims of C14 validity and weakens claims of invalidity, in this particular case -- but then, I disagree that you have provided info that proves C14 validity, or refutes C14 invalidity, in this case.
Yet you cannot provide a basis for this unfounded belief.

- Can you expect me to look for, and find, that which you think you've provided but I think you haven't?
--- Jabba
Yup. It has been provided to you in copious amounts in this very thread, you don't even have to look very far.

- Just to let you know -- due to various events, I have not been able to devote 4 hrs a day to this project for the last few weeks...
- But no worries -- I should get back to my typical speed momentarily.
--- Jabba
The thread will be slowing down then?
 
Evidence Against Catbon Dating

Perhaps it would be simplest for you to post up the things you think refute the carbon 14 dating.
Pakeha,

- I don't think that anything actually refutes the carbon dating.

- I just think that a lot of evidence does the opposite of supporting it (I can't find an appropriate antonym).
- A while back (as you will recall), I started posting what I consider to be evidence "detracting from"(?) the carbon dating when I started presenting what I consider to be 1) "direct" evidence against the process itself, and 2) "indirect" evidence against the process itself (direct evidence against the results of the process -- see #2084 (tedious, but, I think necessary)).
- For various reasons, I just haven't gotten very far... :)

- Then, in #3107, Pierson5, our new "Road Dog" (Elmore Leonard, anyone?) began discussing some of my "evidence" in #2084, followed by Dave, giving me a bunch of new sub-issues that need addressing...

- Oh well.

--- Jabba
 
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Jabba said:
- I just think that a lot of evidence does the opposite of supporting it (I can't find an appropriate antonym).
That's because there ISN'T ANY. Evidence either supports an argument, refutes it, or is irrelevant to it.

- A while back (as you will recall), I started posting what I consider to be evidence "detracting from"(?) the carbon dating when I started presenting what I consider to be 1) "direct" evidence against the process itself, and 2) "indirect" evidence against the process itself
Yes, yes, we all remember your vain attempt to force us to comply with an argument style tailor-made to establish a false equivalency, and to allow you to present arguments without any supporting data whatever. Your "indirect evidence" was nothing more than inuendo, unsupported assertions, and irrelevancies. For example, you consider the idea that there was blood on the cloth to be "indirect evidence" that the C14 dating was wrong--despite the fact that we've proven that there's nothing about the blood stains that necessitates an ancient date, EVEN IF we assume they are actually blood (something you've yet to prove).

giving me a bunch of new sub-issues that need addressing...
Here's a thought: Instead of trying to find arguments that allow you to ignore our data, why don't you try to UNDERSTAND our data? I can prove that you don't in at least one case (radiometric dating). Who knows? It may even help your case--a basic understanding of the principles involved in C14 dating, for example, will allow you to make more accurate attacks against us. Because right now all you're offering are rationalizations, not reasons.
 
...
- I just think that a lot of evidence does the opposite of supporting it (I can't find an appropriate antonym).

Great.
How about posting it up?
And explaining why you think it's important.


- A while back (as you will recall), I started posting what I consider to be evidence "detracting from"(?) the carbon dating when I started presenting what I consider to be 1) "direct" evidence against the process itself, and 2) "indirect" evidence against the process itself (direct evidence against the results of the process -- see #2084 (tedious, but, I think necessary)).

You'll recall all that was thoroughly chewed up here?
Could you point to any particular point you think wasn't falsified?


- Then, in #3107, Pierson5, our new "Road Dog" (Elmore Leonard, anyone?) began discussing some of my "evidence" in #2084, followed by Dave, giving me a bunch of new sub-issues that need addressing...

You realise there was nothing new in 'our' road dog's post?
And this has been pointed out by a number of knowledgeable posters?
Recently?
 
Pakeha,

- I don't think that anything actually refutes the carbon dating.
You admit that the C14 is correct. OK then.

- I just think that a lot of evidence does the opposite of supporting it (I can't find an appropriate antonym).
You admit you do not know the language. OK then.

- A while back (as you will recall), I started posting what I consider to be evidence "detracting from"(?) the carbon dating when I started presenting what I consider to be 1) "direct" evidence against the process itself, and 2) "indirect" evidence against the process itself (direct evidence against the results of the process -- see #2084 (tedious, but, I think necessary)).
No, you dodged and dived and presented no evidence whatsoever.
- For various reasons, I just haven't gotten very far... :)
You have not gotten very far because you have presented nothing.

- Then, in #3107, Pierson5, our new "Road Dog" (Elmore Leonard, anyone?) began discussing some of my "evidence" in #2084, followed by Dave, giving me a bunch of new sub-issues that need addressing...
Isn't that grand. You have given yourself permission to divert.

- Oh well.

--- Jabba
Oh well, indeed.
.
 
Pakeha,

- A while back (as you will recall), I started posting what I consider to be evidence "detracting from"(?) the carbon dating when I started presenting what I consider to be 1) "direct" evidence against the process itself, and 2) "indirect" evidence against the process itself (direct evidence against the results of the process -- see #2084 (tedious, but, I think necessary)).



But none of what you previously posted was actually genuine evidence, was it! That was thoroughly explained to you before, many, many times.

What you posted, claiming it was your "evidence" against the C14, was nothing more than the amateur beliefs of your fellow Christian shroud enthusiasts, none of whom could actually get those beliefs published in any real science journal.


You don’t actually have any evidence at all against the C14.
 
Possible reasons that the Carbon 14 testing was wrong:
1. Invisible patch hypothesis
Comment: The invisible hypothesis is the most discussed idea in this thread. The evidence against it is daunting to the point that for any practical purposes it is reasonable to accept that the invisible hypothesis has been proved false.

2. Bioplastic coating
Comment: Roger Sparks, a carbon dating expert from New Zealand, makes very convincing arguments against this possibility here: http://www.shroud.com/c14debat.htm. This is clearly a fringe theory and bioplastic coating is not a recognized source of error for carbon 14 age dating. Even if it bioplastic coating was shown to be a possible source of error for the dating of a fabric the possibility that it could cause anything like the 1300 year error hypothesized for the shroud dating is essentially impossible for the reasons that Sparks outlined in the discussion linked to above.

3. Collusion
Comment: That are many hypothetical permutations of collusion by the people involved in the sampling and testing. All of them seem to be extremely unlikely. For one thing nobody has shown any kind of possible motive. But even if a motive could be theorized the well documented sampling and testing procedures coupled with the use of controls seems to preclude it.

4. Effects from the fires that damaged the shroud
Comment: This is a theory that carbon from the burning migrated into the shroud and perhaps there is a mechanism whereby carbon 14 as opposed to carbon 12 and carbon 13 preferentially migrated into the cloth. Sparks in the link above, argues both that preferential migration of carbon 14 from a fire is not possible and that if there was a problem with carbon 14 dating of samples based on exposure to fires that it would have been noticed by now. Meacham argues that there is very little if any carbon 14 dating that has been done on a sample alleged to have been a first century artifact that had been subjected to a fire in about 1500 AD so no conclusion is possible about the carbon 14 dating on the shroud. The problem, of course, with Meacham's line of argument is that carbon 14 dating might be deemed unreliable in almost any situation because there is always going to be something unique about a sample. No scientifically recognized reason has been put forth as to why the nature of the shroud's history would cause an error remotely in the range of the error hypothesized.

5. Other unknown sources of error for the carbon 14 testing
Comment: The argument here is that there are various known sources of error for carbon 14 testing and maybe not all sources of carbon 14 test errors may be known and with regard to the shroud one of these unknown sources of error has caused a test error.

This at best seems to be a remote possibility. None of the known problems with carbon 14 testing seem to apply here. The known problems include that the source of carbon for marine organisms is not atmospheric, some snails have been shown to incorporate older sources of carbon in their shells, and the use of old carbon sources in the preparation of materials as in the use of asphalt in some of the compounds used by the Egyptians in the creation of the mummies. One thing to note about the problems listed above is that they all have the effect of making a sample test older than it is and with the shroud the opposite problem is hypothesized.
 
I think that's a fair summary, Davefoc.

Pakeha and Jabba speaking
- I just think that a lot of evidence does the opposite of supporting it (I can't find an appropriate antonym).
Great.
How about posting it up?
And explaining why you think it's important.

I gotta a better idea. Why doesn't Jabba do something like, create a website that contains a page that summarizes his evidence? Oh wait...
 
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