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Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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Clayton Moore said:
What would trigger it to result in a dramatic increase of autistic toddlers worldwide?
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Tomtomkent said:
Genetics. Disease. Environmental effects.

Why do you assume it is Vaccines? How do you eliminate the thousands of commonalities?
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Erm, has there actually been a "dramatic increase of autistic toddlers"?

Baird et al in the BMJ: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC188387/
The number of children diagnosed as having autistic spectrum disorders is increasing. Studies investigating this phenomenon have concluded that several factors account for the increase–for example, changing conceptualisation to a spectrum rather than a core categorical condition; changes in diagnostic methods; and the inclusion of children with disorders such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, Tourette's syndrome, or tuberous sclerosis as also having autistic spectrum disorder.
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Shattuck points out that "higher autism prevalence was significantly associated with corresponding declines in the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities" - children who once would have been categorised as having mental retardation or learning disabilities are now classified as being on the autistic spectrum. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16585296

Then there's the Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey 2007: http://www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and...m-the-adult-psychiatric-morbidity-survey-2007
  • Using the recommended threshold of a score of 10 or more on the Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule, 1.0 per cent of the adult population had ASD. Published childhood population studies show the prevalence rate among children is also approximately 1.0 per cent.
  • The ASD prevalence rate was higher in men (1.8 per cent) than women (0.2 per cent). This fits with the gender profile found in childhood population studies.
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Then there's this summary: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/107/5/e84.short
Several factors may contribute to apparent increases in incidence of ASD in recent years. Most data indicate increased recognition and reporting as primary factors, but the epidemiologic data are insufficient to determine if there has been a true increase in the incidence of ASD. Increased reporting of ASD in recent years has occurred long after the introduction of MMR vaccine in the United States in 1971 and widespread use of this vaccine in the 1970s for routine immunization of children at 12 to 15 months of age. Appropriate detailed studies are needed to define the true incidence and prevalence of ASD. Epidemiologic studies in Europe indicate no association between MMR vaccine and ASD.
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It might be that there's been an increase in the actual (as opposed to reported) rate of autism, but if there has I doubt it could be fairly described as "dramatic". I don't suppose Clayton has robust evidence of a "dramatic" increase in the actual rate of autism? If he has, now might be a good time to share it...

Rutter thinks there may have been a rise in in the actual rate of autism (i.e. not just an administrative increase). Doesn't seem to think it's that "dramatic" though. In fact, Rutter thinks the reported increase is "largely a consequence of improved ascertainment and a considerable broadening of the diagnostic concept". He goes on to say "There is no support for the hypothesis for a role of either MMR or thimerosal in causation, but the evidence on the latter is more limited." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15858952?dopt=Abstract

Gerber and Offit discuss the various failed anti-vaccine hypotheses here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/
Twenty epidemiologic studies have shown that neither thimerosal nor MMR vaccine causes autism. These studies have been performed in several countries by many different investigators who have employed a multitude of epidemiologic and statistical methods. The large size of the studied populations has afforded a level of statistical power sufficient to detect even rare associations. These studies, in concert with the biological implausibility that vaccines overwhelm a child’s immune system, have effectively dismissed the notion that vaccines cause autism. Further studies on the cause or causes of autism should focus on more-promising leads.
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Clayton thinks that (a) there has been a "dramatic increase of autistic toddlers worldwide" and (b) vaccines are the cause of this "dramatic increase". I can't find evidence of a dramatic increase in the actual rates of autism - the evidence I have seen suggests there might, possibly be an increase in the actual rate of autism (not a dramatic increase, mind you) but that the reported increase is largely explained by diagnostic substitution etc. As for the second part... there's plenty of research into vaccines and autism. The best available evidence shows no link between vaccines and autism. If there is a (relatively small) increase in the actual rate of autism, it isn't linked to vaccination - as Gerber and Offit say, the large size of the studied populations has afforded a level of statistical power sufficient to detect even rare associations.
 
Clayton Moore said:
What study of infant recipients was made that included 9 vaccines during the same visit?

Just the fact that preemies are put on the same vaccine schedule as full term babies is criminal negligence.

http://vactruth.com/2012/01/19/baby-dies-after-first-shots/
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Tomblvd said:
You didn't answer the question. What is SPECIFICALLY wrong with those shots as listed?
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Maybe Clayton thinks there's too many of them? Presumably, Clayton is worried about all the antigens that kids have to deal with these days what with the vaccine schedule having a larger number of vaccines than it used to. I mean, it stands to reason that if you have more vaccines then you must have more antigens. It's obvious.

Oh.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.long

...infants actually encounter fewer antigens in vaccines today than they did 40 or 100 years ago
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Hm.

The authors also examine other aspects, including the theoretic capacity of an infant’s immune system. They conclude that "current studies do not support the hypothesis that multiple vaccines overwhelm, weaken, or “use up” the immune system".

Current studies do not support the hypothesis that multiple vaccines overwhelm, weaken, or “use up” the immune system. On the contrary, young infants have an enormous capacity to respond to multiple vaccines, as well as to the many other challenges present in the environment. By providing protection against a number of bacterial and viral pathogens, vaccines prevent the “weakening” of the immune system and consequent secondary bacterial infections occasionally caused by natural infection.
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Vaccinated children are not at greater risk of subsequent infections with other pathogens than unvaccinated children.On the contrary, in Germany, a study of 496 vaccinated and unvaccinated children found that children who received immunizations against diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, Hib, and polio within the first 3 months of life had fewer infections with vaccine-related and -unrelated pathogens than the nonvaccinated group.
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000063 said:
That's not specific. That's not even really an answer. Don't you find it odd that only conspiracy websites seem to make these post hoc connections?
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Err, twins? Both recieving the same vaccines at the same time?

Don't you see, Clayton, how this torpedoes your argument? Why did both not suffer the same fate?

Also,
(It is worth noting that there is a history of Sudden Infant Death and allergies in the family. The twins were being prescribed a milk supplement due to a milk allergy at the time Stacy became ill)
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As usual, Clayton, your "source" both sucks and blows, even though that should be physically impossible.
 
Clayton Moore said:
One of the 9 vaccines she got was for meningitis.
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You do realize that none of the meningitis vaccines in current use have meningitis bacteria in them, and therefore cannot possibly cause meningitis? It would have to be spontaneous generation!

So first, I would like more proof that the events these anti-vaccine sites describe actually happened. But even if the child died of meningitis, you've only proved it is a deadly disease that people need to be protected against with vaccination. This child died before she could benefit form the vaccine; not because of it!
 
Clayton Moore said:
I had the measles and the other childhood diseases. I didn't suffer. I got sick.
I got strep throat when I was 12. I was out of school for two or three weeks. One of my teachers tutored me so that I could keep up. She was beautiful and I could hardly think.

http://www.gentlebirth.org/ronnie/homejjg.html


Vaccines and contagions are likely the problem with hospital births.
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Clayton,
Didn't we have this very discussion before on this forum, with you claiming (with no evidence) that measles was a very mild disease, and everyone else documenting that measles kills and cripples many of its other victims?

You even brought up previously that measles was mild for you. Great, I'm glad. Iinfluenza is mild for many. But it killed more people than guns inWorld War 1.

All this was described to you and documented. You never were able to disprove these facts. Instead you abandoned the thread for weeks, then tried a different topic. Yet here we are again.
 
Giordano said:
You do realize that none of the meningitis vaccines in current use have meningitis bacteria in them, and therefore cannot possibly cause meningitis? It would have to be spontaneous generation!
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It's homeopathy, you see. The vaccine remembers being in contact with live bacteria, so it has the same properties as the actual ones. Actually, given the usual homeopathic principle of "less is more", since there are no bacteria at all in the vaccine, this makes it more dangerous than the bacteria themselves!
 
Clayton Moore said:
What study of infant recipients was made that included 9 vaccines during the same visit?

Just the fact that preemies are put on the same vaccine schedule as full term babies is criminal negligence.

http://vactruth.com/2012/01/19/baby-dies-after-first-shots/
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What is criminal is the willingness of an anti-fax site to exploit the unrelated deth of a child! All to push forward their anti-scientific agenda, thereby putting countless other children at risk for diseases that vaccinations could prevent.
 
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