Julian Assange: rapist or not?

[WildCat]

Err...no, I didn't. I posted a link to a youtube video of him and explained what he was talking about in the link. I didn't judge him at all, let alone on one issue.

Sure you didn't, and I'm the King of Spain.

I am (mercifully) no expert on US politics. I'm mainly aware of Mr Paul for his ridiculing of Mr Bernanke.

Ron Paul hasn't ridiculed anyone, anywhere on economics. Only his fellow gold standard loons think Ron Paul knows anything about economics, and the rest of us laugh at him.

 

[Here_to_learn]

According to reports in Swedish media (dn.se), several Swedish official web sites are under a DDOS attack, and an organisation called "Free Assange" has apparently claimed responsibility.

Supporting free access to information by attacking web sites you disagree with....

 

[jhunter1163]

Folks, once again, the thread topic is Julian Assange. Please keep to that topic.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163

 

[uke2se]

According to reports in Swedish media (dn.se), several Swedish official web sites are under a DDOS attack, and an organisation called "Free Assange" has apparently claimed responsibility.

Supporting free access to information by attacking web sites you disagree with....

It doesn't even look like it's websites they disagree with. Studyinsweden.se and Swedenbookshop.se aren't really political sites, after all.

 

[theprestige]

This doesn't have any bearing on the current issue, but in some ways, rogue state can apply.

Okay. So if you're not going from "the US is a rogue state" to "therefore it is plausible that the US is trumping up rape charges against Assange in Sweden", then how are you getting there?

 

[a_unique_person]

Okay. So if you're not going from "the US is a rogue state" to "therefore it is plausible that the US is trumping up rape charges against Assange in Sweden", then how are you getting there?

All I'm claiming is his paranoia could be justified. The link between extradition from Sweden being easier than from GB, I have no idea. I have seen no evidence to support the notion.

 

[BenBurch]

All I'm claiming is his paranoia could be justified. The link between extradition from Sweden being easier than from GB, I have no idea. I have seen no evidence to support the notion.

Paranoia is ever justified?

In his case, some fear might be though; He committed a serious crime. If convicted, he will be a sex offender, and his freedom of travel pretty much ends right there - getting a visa as a rapist is not usually possible. Plus he will have lost his reputation and his freedom for a period of time.

 

[theprestige]

All I'm claiming is his paranoia could be justified.

Paranoia of what, exactly? Justified by what, exactly?

Put it another way: What do you understand Assange's claim to be? What evidence has he presented?

 

[Silhouette]

Paranoia of what, exactly? Justified by what, exactly?

Put it another way: What do you understand Assange's claim to be? What evidence has he presented?

There is a financial blockade on WikiLeaks by PayPal, Visa, Mastercard, Bank of America and Western Union based on perceived illegality even though WikiLeaks hasn't been found guilty of any crimes in a court of law. I admit that I don't know exactly who pressured them to do it, it may have been the US government or they may have acted independently. Amazon forced WikiLeaks off of their cloud servers under pressure from Senator Lieberman IIRC. People affiliated with the organization have had their e-mail and twitter account information subpoenaed by the US government. Because Julian Assange is the founder and main spokesman of WikiLeaks, he is under personal attack for the perceived illegality of publishing the Cables, Gitmo Files, Iraq & Afghanistan War Logs, etc. He has had death threats levelled against himself and members of his family. The Vice President called him a "High Tech Terrorist" knowing full well that he was using a highly loaded word that would cause the public opinion to think that Assange is the same as a terrorist.

My point is this, he believes that people in the US want him dead and knows that the trigger happy members of our Senate and Congress would like to keep Guantanamo open and continue to use torture enhanced interrogation techniques on "terrorists". Though I don't believe that the Obama Administration would do that, I can't say the same for a Romney Administration. Sarah Palin compared him to a terrorist and she has a lot of influence on people who like the idea of waterboarding. I can understand the paranoia based on this.

I don't believe there is a connection between the allegations in Sweden and the US possibly trying to extradite him. Based on what I've learned about Swedish law in this thread, I don't believe that it would be easier to extradite from Sweden. I understand now that he has to be in Sweden in order to be charged with sex offences and that he is evading charges by staying in the Ecuadorian Embassy.

 

[theprestige]

There is a financial blockade on WikiLeaks by PayPal, Visa, Mastercard, Bank of America and Western Union based on perceived illegality even though WikiLeaks hasn't been found guilty of any crimes in a court of law. I admit that I don't know exactly who pressured them to do it, it may have been the US government or they may have acted independently. Amazon forced WikiLeaks off of their cloud servers under pressure from Senator Lieberman IIRC. People affiliated with the organization have had their e-mail and twitter account information subpoenaed by the US government. Because Julian Assange is the founder and main spokesman of WikiLeaks, he is under personal attack for the perceived illegality of publishing the Cables, Gitmo Files, Iraq & Afghanistan War Logs, etc. He has had death threats levelled against himself and members of his family. The Vice President called him a "High Tech Terrorist" knowing full well that he was using a highly loaded word that would cause the public opinion to think that Assange is the same as a terrorist.

My point is this, he believes that people in the US want him dead and knows that the trigger happy members of our Senate and Congress would like to keep Guantanamo open and continue to use torture enhanced interrogation techniques on "terrorists". Though I don't believe that the Obama Administration would do that, I can't say the same for a Romney Administration. Sarah Palin compared him to a terrorist and she has a lot of influence on people who like the idea of waterboarding. I can understand the paranoia based on this.

I don't believe there is a connection between the allegations in Sweden and the US possibly trying to extradite him. Based on what I've learned about Swedish law in this thread, I don't believe that it would be easier to extradite from Sweden. I understand now that he has to be in Sweden in order to be charged with sex offences and that he is evading charges by staying in the Ecuadorian Embassy.

Thanks, I think that just about sums it up perfectly.

 

[Joey McGee]

Firsly, I'm English, so I don't have to go through the rather soul-destroying exercise of choosing between a right wing candidate and an extremely right wing candidate in a US Presidential election. In my own country I voted Green at the last election, and my vote helped to elect the first Green MP ever to be returned to Westminster. I also live in the only Green-run city in the UK.

Do I support a return to the gold standard? Well, I know the fiat money system is fundamentally broken and cannot be repaired, so we are going to have to invent some new sort of monetary system to replace it. As for what that system is I am open to debate. It may well involve precious metals. It might also involve backing a currency with some other sort of commodity, or energy.

It is not a question of whether or not the existing monetary system should be replaced. It has been broken since 2008 and all the people who are running the system can do is print money and rig markets/statistics in order to hide the fact that it is broken. They cannot continue to do this indefinitely. Eventually the oil exporters will simply refuse to accept fiat dollars as payment for their oil, and at that point gold will return to the global monetary system as the de-facto reserve currency. Want oil? Cough up gold.

I completely disagree, a topic for another thread. My point was that many people who like Paul are completely unaware of his total belief system and support him in their own disinterest. You didn't say "here is ron paul making some good new points" It's Paul rehashing all of the same arguements being discussed here, the only new thing is that it's Paul, it's an argument from authority, and in this case, the man has none, and actually makes your position look worse. cheers.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

This is what we're up against, it seems. Complete fantasy.

I take it you're not familiar with much of modern history? I'm not sure what else you call a nation that conquers others in defiance of established international law, tortures prisoners in defiance of its own law and international treaty, keeps political prisoners seized overseas for years without trial, murders its own citizens overseas without trial, and keeps its own citizens imprisoned for years without trial.

None of these are controversial claims, they're simple facts about what has actually been done by the USA in recent history. What does it take to be a rogue state in your view, if it's not conquering, murdering, torturing and imprisoning with complete disregard for international and domestic law?

Obama's kept it down to a dull roar but I don't think I'd want to gamble on his goodwill if I were Assange. A change of government could happen at any time.

 

[Here_to_learn]

The Guardian reports on a a written statement from William Hague to MPs.

Hague told MPs the double guarantee meant Assange could only be extradited to the US from Sweden if both Britain and Sweden believed he would not face the death penalty and his human rights would not be breached.

The foreign secretary said: "Both the United Kingdom and Sweden are signatories to the European convention on human rights and the British government has complete confidence in the independence and fairness of the Swedish judicial system. As we have discussed with the government of Ecuador, the United Kingdom and Sweden robustly implement and adhere to the highest standards of human rights protection.

"The suggestion that Mr Assange's human rights would be put at risk by the possibility of onward extradition from Sweden to a third country is also without foundation. Not only would Sweden – as a signatory to the European convention on human rights – be required to refuse extradition in circumstances which would breach his human rights, but the authorities in Sweden would also be legally obliged to seek the United Kingdom's consent before any extradition to a non-EU member state could proceed.

"Our consent may only be given in accordance with the international conventions by which the UK is bound, including the European convention on human rights, and also our domestic law. In practice, this means that the United Kingdom could only consent to Mr Assange's onward extradition from Sweden to a third country if satisfied that extradition would be compatible with his human rights, and that there was no prospect of a death sentence being imposed or carried out."

 

[theprestige]

I take it you're not familiar with much of modern history? I'm not sure what else you call a nation that conquers others in defiance of established international law, tortures prisoners in defiance of its own law and international treaty, keeps political prisoners seized overseas for years without trial, murders its own citizens overseas without trial, and keeps its own citizens imprisoned for years without trial.

None of these are controversial claims, they're simple facts about what has actually been done by the USA in recent history. What does it take to be a rogue state in your view, if it's not conquering, murdering, torturing and imprisoning with complete disregard for international and domestic law?

Obama's kept it down to a dull roar but I don't think I'd want to gamble on his goodwill if I were Assange. A change of government could happen at any time.

So I'll ask again:

Okay. So if you're not going from "the US is a rogue state" to "therefore it is plausible that the US is trumping up rape charges against Assange in Sweden", then how are you getting there?

 

[nathan]

Pretty thorough article by David Allen Green (Jack of Kent) in the New Statesman:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/09/assange-and-legal-myths

Thanks for that. Here's a paragraph:

The Chief Magistrate also heard witnesses on behalf of Assange. Under cross-examination, it became clear that Assange’s own Swedish lawyer had misled the court and Assange's other witnesses over whether the Swedish prosecutor had been in contact to request interrogation before Assange left Sweden. In a scathing passage of the judgment , the Chief Magistrate even accused Assange's Swedish lawyer of “a deliberate attempt to mislead the court”

wow, just wow.

 

[The Dark Lord]

None of these are controversial claims, they're simple facts about what has actually been done by the USA in recent history.

No, some of them are outright lies.

 

[JihadJane]

You know damned well already. Declan Walsh, David Leigh and Nick Davies all need to be complete liars, Assange accuses them all of working for the Pentagon. Two Germans who were at the same dinner in question claim they never heard it. Big deal, when you combine the credibility of the journalists in question who said they did with the revelation by defectors/insiders (James Ball etc) that the names were redacted hastily, it becomes clear who is obfuscating. Now, which defense do you choose? That all of those people are working for the Pentagon? That the insiders were disgruntled and the journalists jealous? That it's ok because Assange eventually saw how insane and stupid he was being and relented to having some names redacted?

Your claims on this have been trashed once already in this thread so I won't bother doing it again.

The Guardian

It was this contemptuous man who, under pressure from the US, foolishly threatened to storm the Ecuador's London embassy.

The UK was also a willing participant in the USA's illegal abduction/torture program, not to mention the [URL="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/03/tony-blair-the-hague-iraq-war"]illegal invasion and destruction of Iraq, thus demonstrating its utter contempt for international law. Hague has also declared his support for terrorists in Syria.

Thus, UK Foreign Secretary William Hague is blatantly lying when he claims: "...the United Kingdom and Sweden robustly implement and adhere to the highest standards of human rights protection."

He is part of the corrupt criminal nexus that would like to see Assange neutralized. His promises are no more trustworthy than Egypt's promise not to torture al-Zari and Ahmed Agiza.

"To cover itself, the Swedish government obtained promises from the Egyptian authorities that the men would not be tortured or subjected to the death penalty, and would be given fair trials."

Fine-sounding words.

'Sweden Violated Torture Ban in CIA Rendition'

According to reports in Swedish media (dn.se), several Swedish official web sites are under a DDOS attack, and an organisation called "Free Assange" has apparently claimed responsibility.

Supporting free access to information by attacking web sites you disagree with....

Irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

Thanks for that. Here's a paragraph:



wow, just wow.

I.e., a text message was overlooked.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

It's interesting to me that some are quite happy to let the rule of law slide for the grub that is Assange. And as a defense or justification, they use the allegation that others have not observed the rule of law in other areas altogether.

 

[Joey McGee]

Your claims on this have been trashed once already in this thread so I won't bother doing it again.

Poppycock. I think someone accused me of being racist against Germans, and pointed out Assange is careful to say "it's a bog-standard tactic of the pentagon" instead of "i know the pentagon is doing it", and roundabout just accused the English of making it up. If that's your idea of debunking no wonder you believe so much ********

Your hero Assange is the only one being trashed in this thread.

 

[Korren]

It's interesting to me that some are quite happy to let the rule of law slide for the grub that is Assange. And as a defense or justification, they use the allegation that others have not observed the rule of law in other areas altogether.

From the movie A Man for All Seasons:

"So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!"

"Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?"

"Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!"

"Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!"