Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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Robert Prey said:
I've been using adobe products longer than that. But you seem to claim that a layer mask is a separate layer. It is not. Layer masks and clipping masks are contained in a layer, but their creation does not create a separate layer.

"A mask is an instruction in the layer that tells the layer what parts will show through and what parts will not (masked parts)."

http://www.nyfalls.com/article-photoshop-adjustment-layers.html
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You can't possibly mean you're older than 15 can you?
 
Robert Prey said:
I've been using adobe products longer than that. But you seem to claim that a layer mask is a separate layer. It is not. Layer masks and clipping masks are contained in a layer, but their creation does not create a separate layer.

"A mask is an instruction in the layer that tells the layer what parts will show through and what parts will not (masked parts)."

http://www.nyfalls.com/article-photoshop-adjustment-layers.html
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That's for Adobe Photoshop, and has nothing whatsoever to do with a PDF generated by non-Adobe software.

No wonder you were gulled by Zebest...that's the exact same fundamental error she made!
 
EventHorizon said:
You can't possibly mean you're older than 15 can you?
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No a bit younger I would think, here is what happened when the bird of wisdom visited Robert

picture.php
 
ANTPogo said:
WND was not truthful about what Zatkovich said. WND, in fact, wouldn't know the truth if they took the Truthmobile to Truth City, Truthsylvania, to visit TruthCorp's truth factory and were given a free sample truth at the end of the tour.

Why do you trust them to be truthful about what Temblay said?
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You mean you don't trust the ghost-Obama leg people?
 
Robert Prey said:
The Fogbow critique was written by Epictitus. Do you know who that is???

The Critique also associates its "findings" with that Jean Claude-Tremblay guy you cited from Fox News -- the guy who said he was completely mis-quoted based on a 4 minute phone call. In addition, he also refers to that infamous screed in the National Review by Nathan Goulding. Goulding is the guy who claims to be an expert at swing dancing, but never attended a computer class in his life. No matter. In that article instead of specifying his theory as to what compression process was used, he simply mentioned both the long ago discredited OCR process as well as Optimization in the same breath, covering at least two of the hypothetical bases. So not only does he not attempt to replicate the layers found in the COLB, he simply speculates that it could happen. And there is absolutely nothing in the Fogbow article written by some unknown person that debunks the specific, careful step by step explanation in the video you claimed that
he "debunked."
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You didn't eve read the article did you? Where does he mention OCR?

Sorry but thoroughly debunked.
 
Robert Prey said:
I've been using adobe products longer than that.
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Good for you.

When I taught computer graphics at the graduate-student level, my classes were taught in the John Warnock Engineering Building. That name may mean something to you, if you know what you're talking about. I met John Warnock. I know him.

Just a few miles south of me, a wonderful new building is going up. It's architecturally stunning. It's large and spacious. It's the talk of the town. And the construction banners prominently feature the Adobe logo. Yes, it's Adobe's new Wasatch development division. For the past several years they've been housed at WordPerfect's old campus down in Utah County.

In case it's not obvious to you, I'm pointing out that you can't throw a rock around here without hitting an Adobe software developer. I know a lot of them. I hire them. They're good software developers and they know their stuff. Guess how many of them are Birthers: none. Guess how many of them buy into Mara Zebest's ignorant fantasies: none. And this is one of the reddest states on the electoral map.

Sorry, Robert, you're not the smartest guy in the room. You don't get to talk down to everyone.

Layer masks and clipping masks are contained in a layer, but their creation does not create a separate layer.
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Just like Zebest you're thinking in terms of Adobe Photoshop, which has nothing to do with the Obama PDF.

Object groups in PDF file formats do not work like that. An object group in Acrobat is not the same semantically as a layer in Adobe Photoshop. An Adobe user would know about layers. Only Adobe-savvy developers know about object groups. There is one layer in the Obama PDF, but several object groups.

You don't know what you're talking about. Get used to it.
 
Proving that the only thing Orly Taitz, or TWLIAOTU, learns from her multiple defeats, are new legal terms, she has now gone ahead and filed a notice to remove her case against Obama in Orange County to a Federal Court.

This in spite of the fact that none of the 217 defendants have replied to the motion as of yet, and the teeny tiny thing about removals being reserved for defendants only... :rolleyes:

(Edit: Yes, that is the suit she filed when she lost the Senator Primary, she filed it against Obama for some insane reason).
 
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JayUtah said:
Good for you.

When I taught computer graphics at the graduate-student level, my classes were taught in the John Warnock Engineering Building. That name may mean something to you, if you know what you're talking about. I met John Warnock. I know him.

Just a few miles south of me, a wonderful new building is going up. It's architecturally stunning. It's large and spacious. It's the talk of the town. And the construction banners prominently feature the Adobe logo. Yes, it's Adobe's new Wasatch development division. For the past several years they've been housed at WordPerfect's old campus down in Utah County.

In case it's not obvious to you, I'm pointing out that you can't throw a rock around here without hitting an Adobe software developer. I know a lot of them. I hire them. They're good software developers and they know their stuff. Guess how many of them are Birthers: none. Guess how many of them buy into Mara Zebest's ignorant fantasies: none. And this is one of the reddest states on the electoral map.

Sorry, Robert, you're not the smartest guy in the room. You don't get to talk down to everyone.



Just like Zebest you're thinking in terms of Adobe Photoshop, which has nothing to do with the Obama PDF.

Object groups in PDF file formats do not work like that. An object group in Acrobat is not the same semantically as a layer in Adobe Photoshop. An Adobe user would know about layers. Only Adobe-savvy developers know about object groups. There is one layer in the Obama PDF, but several object groups.

You don't know what you're talking about. Get used to it.
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Really? Then neither does Expert Ivan Zatkovich:

"Ivan Zatkovich has 28 years experience in computer science and document management and for more than 10 years has been an expert witness providing testimony in federal court in both criminal and civil litigation. His company, Tampa-based eComp Consultants, which consults on intellectual property for telecommunications, web publishing and ecommerce and has provided services for corporations such as McGraw-Hill, Houghton-Mifflin, Citicorp and Amazon.com.
Zatkovich says there are serious problems with the birth certificate.
"When a paper document is scanned on a scanner and saved as a PDF file it normally contains only a single layer of graphical information. The PDF that appears on the White House website however, contains multiple layers of graphic information. Multiple layers usually appear in a document like this when it is being edited or modified in some fashion.
"It is possible to take a single layer PDF and inadvertently create multiple layers, without changing the image in any fashion. But that does not appear to be the case here. The multiple layers in the PDF document are a result of changes made to the image," -- EXPERT ~ Ivan Zatkovich

ZATKOVICH'S CONCLUSION: "The content clearly indicates that the document was knowingly and explicitly edited and modified before it was placed on the web."

http://www.wnd.com/2011/05/293421/

Conning the public by flaunting your alleged credentials won't work with me. It is you who does not know what he is talking about. Get used to it.
 
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That'd be the same Ivan Zakovich who also concluded:
"All of the modifications to the PDF document that can be identified are consistent with someone enhancing the legibility of the document."
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Hell, here's the full conclusion, I've highlighted the bit that destroys any argument a birther tries to make:
Conclusion
The following is a summary of my analysis:
1. The Hawaii Department of Health stated that they have a record of the birth certificate of Barak Obama.2. A certificate was produced by the State of Hawaii and copied onto green safety paper, as per normal procedure.
3. The ‘Green copy’ was then scanned, presumably by the White House, to produce a PDF document.
4. The PDF document was then modified in some fashion (e.g. layers, white halo).
All of the modifications to the PDF document that can be identified are consistent with someone enhancing the legibility of the document. It is possible that in addition to enhancing the legibility of the document that the content of the document was also changed. There is no specific evidence of how or why that content would have been changed, but the evidence clearly indicates that the document was changed .
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Edit: And the source report: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Zatkovich-Obama-PDF-report-final.pdf
 
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ANTPogo said:
No, I cited him as someone who used the same Quartz PDFContext tool to create a PDF with layers. Which he did.
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NO. There is nothing in the cited National Review article that mentions Quartz. But there is mention of OCR and Optimization.
 
Good to see you around, Robert. Any luck with those birth certificates? Should be easy enough to find them.
 
Obama is the first president ever who some people aren't satisfied with his legally verified birth records. Hmm. He also is the first president of a certain, um, shall we say "hue"?

For conspiracy theorists who pride themselves on "connecting the dots", this little dot seems to be shoved under the carpet. I say CONSPIRACY!!!!1111!!!11!!!!!!!!!
 
Robert Prey said:
I've been using adobe products longer than that. But you seem to claim that a layer mask is a separate layer. It is not. Layer masks and clipping masks are contained in a layer, but their creation does not create a separate layer.

"A mask is an instruction in the layer that tells the layer what parts will show through and what parts will not (masked parts)."

http://www.nyfalls.com/article-photoshop-adjustment-layers.html
Click to expand...


How many layers = liars?
 
Robert Prey said:
Really? Then neither does Expert Ivan Zatkovich:

"Ivan Zatkovich has 28 years experience in computer science and document management and for more than 10 years has been an expert witness providing testimony in federal court in both criminal and civil litigation. His company, Tampa-based eComp Consultants, which consults on intellectual property for telecommunications, web publishing and ecommerce and has provided services for corporations such as McGraw-Hill, Houghton-Mifflin, Citicorp and Amazon.com.
Zatkovich says there are serious problems with the birth certificate.
"When a paper document is scanned on a scanner and saved as a PDF file it normally contains only a single layer of graphical information. The PDF that appears on the White House website however, contains multiple layers of graphic information. Multiple layers usually appear in a document like this when it is being edited or modified in some fashion.
"It is possible to take a single layer PDF and inadvertently create multiple layers, without changing the image in any fashion. But that does not appear to be the case here. The multiple layers in the PDF document are a result of changes made to the image," -- EXPERT ~ Ivan Zatkovich

ZATKOVICH'S CONCLUSION: "The content clearly indicates that the document was knowingly and explicitly edited and modified before it was placed on the web."

http://www.wnd.com/2011/05/293421/

Conning the public by flaunting your alleged credentials won't work with me. It is you who does not know what he is talking about. Get used to it.
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How many layers does it take to lay an egg?
 
Robert Prey said:
Really? Then neither does Expert Ivan Zatkovich:
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You mean the guy you wrongly said supported your conclusion when in fact he contradicted it -- explicitly? Then when confronted with that, you dropped the Stundie that experts weren't being consulted to "draw conclusions."

Sheesh.

Zatkovich says there are serious problems with the birth certificate.
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No, that's your spin. We already discussed Zatkovich. Kindly stop misquoting him. He believes the document is legit, so don't quote him as if he's someone who doesn't. At this point you're deliberately misrepresenting him.

Conning the public by flaunting your alleged credentials won't work with me.
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Funny -- it seems to work with everyone else, including my employees, clients, and the Mythbusters. Do you hear readers praising you for your knowledge and insight, as they do me? No, you do not. Do you write substantial posts describing the relevant concepts and their impact? No, you just cut and paste from elsewhere.

You've amply demonstrated your substantial disdain for formal education and experience. But some people have chosen to actually do something with their lives. Don't be surprised when they end up having more knowledge and expertise than you do.

It is you who does not know what he is talking about.
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Too bad you're consistently unwilling to demonstrate that.

Please tell us in your own words the difference in PDF terms between a layer and an object group. Then go back to every single one of my posts that you answered only with the dodgy word "Baloney" and write a substantial response. Really, Robert, who do you think you're fooling?
 
RP is certainly not fooling anyone who knows anything about technology and how things work
 
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