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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Aulus Agerius said:
Simon666 said:
It was late, I made a serious mistake. That doesn't make the 1862 figure you guys used any more credible.
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You haven't presented any serious reason to doubt the figure's accuracy.
How about you work out why this is relevant to the holocaust.
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I second that. AAMOF, I have lost the train of argument here. I'd appreciate a brief recapitulation of your point.
 
Simon666 said:
It was late, I made a serious mistake. That doesn't make the 1862 figure you guys used any more credible.
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Let me get this straight. According to you, people who claim the holocaust is real can't make a single mistake or the show's off, but holocaust deniers can just say it was fatigue and move on ? I find your approach to critical thinking a bit dubious.

Say, while you're at it, when do you think you'll provide those 50 laughable witnesses ?
 
Simon666 said:
It was late, I made a serious mistake. That doesn't make the 1862 figure you guys used any more credible.
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Ladies and gentlemen, this is the third time Simon has refused to say what part of his debunker sources he believes in.

You nor any other denier in this thread has never answered the question of how, if the winter was responsible for inmates starving to death, why Germans outside the camps weren't starving as well. Because the only answers are incompetence or murder.
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This issue of death rates has been covered before, yet revuisionist/deniers still try and push an argument that has been refuted,see post 4852.

"Now go and look at how the British treated German prisoners of war kept in the UK. Their death rate was 0.03% compared to a 3.5% death rate for British held by the Germans and 57.5% for Soviets held by the Germans. (Ferguson, Niall (2004), "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History 11 )" (further details in Wikipedia entry on POWs)

Fact is that the Nazis ran the camps with the highest death rates when it came to POWs, their treatment of others always being worse than when they were held prisoner themselves.

Then when dealing with Jews I see no revisionist/denier effort to distinguish between the work and death camps and ghettos. The lowest figure is taken and claimed as if it is consistent across all the camps and ghettos.
 
Clayton Moore said:
"Holohoax Survivors Who Tell The Truth"
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Which Holocaust survivor, in a position to have been a witness, says that there were not mass killings?

Why were these people in the camps in the first place?

Why are you still running from things like the Jäger Report?

Why do you continue to run from supplying primary sources for your posts?
 
Clayton Moore said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm8UmMuRSSw


Orchestras, bands, movies, currency, cantina, coupons

"everybody got money"

soccer teams for each nationality 1944

soccer games


the guards played too


Pressure let up towards the end of the war
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(citation needed)

And, does any of this effect the death rates? Does it disprove the occurance of the holocaust? Does having a soccer team somehow make up for the deaths of over half of Russian POWs?
 
Nessie said:
"Now go and look at how the British treated German prisoners of war kept in the UK. Their death rate was 0.03% compared to a 3.5% death rate for British held by the Germans and 57.5% for Soviets held by the Germans. (Ferguson, Niall (2004), "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History 11 )" (further details in Wikipedia entry on POWs)
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0.03%? Really? Were the British taking 14-15 year olds prisoner?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Excerpt_from_CDC_2003_Table_1.pdf
 
Nick Terry said:
Actually I don't care, because it's your job to demonstrate a basic familiarity with this subject if you want to be taken seriously. Pressac is online, and someone trying to discuss the crematoria and gas chambers of Birkenau ought to have read him, along with several other equally widely available works, such as Pelt's report for the Irving trial.

Heck, a self-styled revisionist should demonstrate some familiarity with the major arguments put forward by revisionists. Your 'gasification cellar' nonsense is straight out of Butz, whether you know it or not, but has been rejected by Faurisson (albeit after he tried 'gasification' on and was shot down), Crowell and Mattogno.

I'm seeing no evidence that you have read, much less understood, the basic literature on either side of the 'debate'. You're basically making it up as you go along. Stop wasting everyone's time.



Why are you persisting with nonsensical arguments that no revisionist has used since about 1980?

There isn't a single item in any of the files or blueprints for the crematoria basements which could possibly 'gasify' coal.
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If you're referring to these documents, those are known delousing chambers and real non homicidal Gaskammers Nick. Don't try to be disingenuous. They're not in the same location as the alleged homicidal ones. I think this is why you have not come forward with your source for all this time.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0056.shtml
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0057.shtml
 
TSR said:
How would you explain the letter written January 29, 1943, from Bischoff Kammler if the room being referred to is not a gas chamber?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7376216#post7376216
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Kevin.Silbstedt said:
Well that's why you idiots are called "deniers". I already showed you and your sick little friend in another thread, that the crematories at Auschwitz were planned to cremate around 4500 corpses per 24 hours. I showed you, that there were gas chambers at least in Leichenkeller I in Krema II and III (gas tight doors with a protected peephole, shower heads and wire net introduction devices were ordered, the room was pre heated, their was a ventilation system, Bischoff called it a "Vergasungskeller" (=gassing cellar) and so on).
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6878081#post6878081
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Wroclaw said:
(1) In a letter written January 29, 1943, to SS Colonel Hans Kammler, Karl Bischoff, an SS captain and architect at Auschwitz-Birkenau, mentions a room in Krema II at Auschwitz-Birkenau that he refers to as a "Vergasungskeller." He is referring to the room that the blueprints for Krema II designate as a "Leichenkeller" (morgue). It has been suggested that the "Vergasungskeller" could have been a gas production cellar or a gas attack shelter for the Nazis. However, it would have been foolish to place a gas production cellar so close to the crematory ovens in Krema II, and certainly the word for a gas attack shelter would have the word "Schutz" in there somewhere. Complicating the matter is the fact that a letter from Erhard Wetzel, a Nazi adviser on Jewish Affairs, to Heinrich Lohse, Reichkommissar for Ostland, stationed at Riga, mentions the "Vergasungsapparate" that had been used in the T-4 Euthanasia program in Berlin. So clearly "Vergasung" can mean "to kill with gas."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7374817&highlight=Bischoff#post7374817
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To affirm, SOLELY on the basis of the letter of 29th January 1943 that the term “Vergassungskeller” designated a homicidal gas chamber installed in Leichenkeller 1 / corpse cellar 1 of Krematorium II was irresponsible, for though “gas chamber” was correct, there was no proof that it was “homicidal”, for to be able to demonstrate this, the following factors must all he taken into account and a number of steps must necessarily be followed:

a) The letter of 29th January 1943 DOES NOT STATE which of the Leichenkeller of Krematorium II the SS are referring to. Drawing 932 shows that THREE Leichenkeller were planned, numbers 1. 2 and 3 [Documents 3 and 4];

b) Two other Bauleitung drawings of Krematorium II, numbers 1311 and 2003. show that Leichenkeller 3 was converted for other functions nothing to do with its original purpose;

c) The report by the engineer responsible for the installations, Kurt Prüfer, clearly states that it is Leichenkeller 2 from which the shuttering could not yet be removed;

d) The only remaining Leichenkeller, designated by Bischoff as the Vergassungskeller, is therefore Leichenkeller 1. His letter means above all that it is to not be used for the moment as a “gassing cellar”, but as a “corpse cellar”, i.e. a “morgue”.

e) The letter shows that the SS called Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorium II the Vergassungskeller / gassing cellar. The existence of a gas chamber in the basement of Krematorium II is thus proven, BUT THAT IS ALL. It is not until this “slip” is compared with and united with others, that the evidence that this was in fact a homicidal gas chamber becomes overwhelming.

To date, no valid argument to refute this interpretation has been found by the revisionists.The American Arthur R Butz in his book,, “The Hoax of the Twentieth Century” (Historical Review Press, Brighton 1977) writes in Chapter IV on Auschwitz:

“Now the word “Vergasung” has two meanings. The primary meaning (and the only one in a technical context is gasification, carburation or vaporization ... In any case it is obvious that the crematoria at Auschwitz required equipment for “Vergasung” in order to inject a fuel air mixture into the ovens and that the translation of NO-4473 [the letter of 29th January 1943], should be revised, possibly to “gas generation cellar”. I have confirmed this interpretation of the “Vergasungskeller” with technically competent sources [!] in Germany” (page 121)

Translation of the passage underlined:

It has not yet been possible to remove the shuttering from the reinforced concrete ceiling of the corpse cellar because of the frost. However, this does not matter because the gassing cellar can be used for the purpose

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0503.shtml
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It appears the subject of Vergasungskeller has come up frequently with Holocaust believers both in this forum and with Pressac and often there is referred to a letter of Bischoff of 1943, in which allegedly he is said in a "slip of the tongue" (no homicidal gas chambers could normally be mentioned and everything killing is "Sonder" this or that) to have referred to one of the rooms on the original blueprints of Krema II indicated as a Leichenkeller 1 to have actually been a gas chamber or better Vergasungskeller.

German original:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//auschwitz/images/Vergasungskeller.jpg

Or alleged English translation:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/bischoff-vergasungskeller-memo.html

29th January 1943

Subject: Krematorium II. State of construction
Reference: SS-WVHA telegram 2648 of 28/1/43
Enclosure: 1 Inspection Report

Head of Amtsgruppen C
SS Lieutenant-General and Waffen SS Major-General
Dr. Ing [Engineer] Kammler

Berlin Lichterfelde West
Under den Eichen 126-135


Krematorium II has been completed but for minor details, thanks to employing all available forces, despite enormous difficulties and freezing weather, using day and night shifts. The furnaces have been lit in the presence of Herr Chief Engineer Prufer of the firm responsible for their construction, Topf & Sons of Erfurt, and they function perfectly. Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end.

Because the wagons are blocked, Messrs Topf & Sons have not been able to deliver on time the ventilation and air extraction installations as requested by the Bauleitung. These will be fitted as soon as they arrive, so that it is probable that the installation will be entirely ready for service on 20th February 1943.

Please find enclosed a report by the inspecting engineer of Topf & Sons, Erfurt.

Head of the Auschwitz Waffen SS and Police
Central Construction Management

[signed] Bischoff
SS Captain

Distribution:
1 SS Second Lieutenants Janisch and Kirschneck

For Archives
[signed] Pollok
SS Second Lieutenant (S)
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http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0503.shtml

Notice however the very disingenuous, lying translation used by both Pressac and nizkor: corpse cellar, SINGULAR. In the original German document, Leichenkellers, PLURAL is mentioned. Since Leichenkeller 3 was apparently assigned a different purpose, this means Leichenkeller 1 and Leichenkeller 2 must have been just Leichenkeller 1 and Leichenkeller 2 instead of Vergasungskeller and Leichenkeller. This means Vergasungskeller must have been something else. Gee, what if the primary meaning really DID apply and it really WAS the gas generator supplying the heat for the crematory and steam for the delousing chambers? :rolleyes: The letter complains that the shuttering could not be removed due to the frost and generally the building process is mentioned to have suffered from the freezing. A more logical explanation would have been that the heat from the Vergasungskeller would have helped against the frost problems:

Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end.
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Looking at the blueprints for the basement of Krema II, it would be weird if at least two of the three corpse cellars (since the plural IS USED, unless some German speaker here will tell me the singular of cellar is Kellers :rolleyes:) had frost problems hampering the removal of the shuttering/formwork and a third one wouldn't have. The original document mentions "Die Eisenbetondecke des Leichenkellers", not specifying which corpse cellars, indicating frost problems with ALL corpse cellars that the heat of a Vergasungskeller could solve.
 
Anyway, I realized my conjugation sucks, as I am Dutch I can read German reasonably but we don't have Genetiv. Des Leichenkellers is singular alright. The rest still applies though that heat makes more sense.
 
Aulus Agerius said:
(citation needed)

And, does any of this effect the death rates? Does it disprove the occurance of the holocaust? Does having a soccer team somehow make up for the deaths of over half of Russian POWs?
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It's the habitual "argument from credulity."

No explanation how a dozen prisoners having brought musical instruments in their few possessions (or having manufactured them in the camp) somehow invalidates the death rate.

I imagine more than a few crafted homemade chess sets as well. Does that mean there was no Holocaust?
 
Simon666 said:
If you're referring to these documents, those are known delousing chambers and real non homicidal Gaskammers Nick. Don't try to be disingenuous. They're not in the same location as the alleged homicidal ones. I think this is why you have not come forward with your source for all this time.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0056.shtml
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0057.shtml
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Unfortunately it is you who is trying to be disingenuous here. I was referring quite clearly to documents discussed later on in Pressac which use the term Gaskammer in relation to Kremas II and III.

Those documents are spelled out and displayed pretty clearly in the chapter on the "39 criminal traces" in Pressac. So I don't need to "come forward" with sources that are absolutely intrinsic to this entire debate, because anyone attempting to discuss the subject ought to know that chapter and have a clear explanation for all 39 documents.

Which you don't have, of course.
 
Clayton Moore said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm8UmMuRSSw


Orchestras, bands, movies, currency, cantina, coupons

"everybody got money"

soccer teams for each nationality 1944

soccer games


the guards played too


Pressure let up towards the end of the war
Click to expand...

Auschwitz was a huge complex of camps holding POWs, Jews and other prisoners. Auschwitz I, Birkenau, Monowitz and 45 other smaller camps. Each camp had differing functions, populations and importantly death rates.

Stop cherry picking small bits and look at the whole picture.
 
Simon666 said:
0.03%? Really? Were the British taking 14-15 year olds prisoner?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Excerpt_from_CDC_2003_Table_1.pdf
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Clearly not. Bear in mind most prisoners where held for 5 years maximum, so you cannot compare that with a whole life study. Then, generally speaking they were healthy, fit and in their twenties when death rates are low. Finally and crucially, they were not mistreated.

When the Nazis were guards, death rates rocketed. You still had generally healthy, fit males in their twenties who were prisoners for a maximum of 5 years. The difference was over treatment.
 
Simon666 said:
It appears the subject of Vergasungskeller has come up frequently with Holocaust believers both in this forum and with Pressac and often there is referred to a letter of Bischoff of 1943, in which allegedly he is said in a "slip of the tongue" (no homicidal gas chambers could normally be mentioned and everything killing is "Sonder" this or that) to have referred to one of the rooms on the original blueprints of Krema II indicated as a Leichenkeller 1 to have actually been a gas chamber or better Vergasungskeller.

German original:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//auschwitz/images/Vergasungskeller.jpg

Or alleged English translation:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/bischoff-vergasungskeller-memo.html



http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0503.shtml

Notice however the very disingenuous, lying translation used by both Pressac and nizkor: corpse cellar, SINGULAR. In the original German document, Leichenkellers, PLURAL is mentioned. Since Leichenkeller 3 was apparently assigned a different purpose, this means Leichenkeller 1 and Leichenkeller 2 must have been just Leichenkeller 1 and Leichenkeller 2 instead of Vergasungskeller and Leichenkeller. This means Vergasungskeller must have been something else. Gee, what if the primary meaning really DID apply and it really WAS the gas generator supplying the heat for the crematory and steam for the delousing chambers? :rolleyes: The letter complains that the shuttering could not be removed due to the frost and generally the building process is mentioned to have suffered from the freezing. A more logical explanation would have been that the heat from the Vergasungskeller would have helped against the frost problems:



Looking at the blueprints for the basement of Krema II, it would be weird if at least two of the three corpse cellars (since the plural IS USED, unless some German speaker here will tell me the singular of cellar is Kellers :rolleyes:) had frost problems hampering the removal of the shuttering/formwork and a third one wouldn't have. The original document mentions "Die Eisenbetondecke des Leichenkellers", not specifying which corpse cellars, indicating frost problems with ALL corpse cellars that the heat of a Vergasungskeller could solve.
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Facepalm.

des Leichenkellers is the possessive singular, of the corpse cellar, in German. And yes, it's pretty common in German (but not an invariant rule) to add an -s when using the possessive.

The possessive plural would be der, not des. des anything cannot be plural. IN fact the cute thing about plurals is that they aren't gendered any more, masculine, feminine and neuter nouns all end up with the same articles.

http://german.speak7.com/german_articles.htm
 
Simon666 said:
Gee, what if the primary meaning really DID apply and it really WAS the gas generator supplying the heat for the crematory and steam for the delousing chambers? :rolleyes:
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Your parsing of the sentence makes no sense, even if you get your cases right.

And you still run up against the problem that there isn't a single source mentioning a gas generator in connection with the basement of Krematorium II, and several sources, such as the Uebergabeverhandlung, which definitely don't list any such thing when one would reasonably expect that if such a machine was present, it would be mentioned.

By contrast, not only do we have a document referring to a 'Vergasungskeller', we also have documents speaking of fitting gastight doors and documents naming the same space as a Gaskammer.
 
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