• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/07/10...ersonal-freedoms-and-islam-in-political-life/

Few Believe U.S. Backs Democracy
Most Muslims Want Democracy, Personal Freedoms, and Islam in Political Life

Overview
More than a year after the first stirrings of the Arab Spring, there continues to be a strong desire for democracy in Arab and other predominantly Muslim nations. Solid majorities in Lebanon, Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia and Jordan believe democracy is the best form of government, as do a plurality of Pakistanis.

Indeed, these publics do not just support the general notion of democracy – they also embrace specific features of a democratic system, such as competitive elections and free speech.

A substantial number in key Muslim countries want a large role for Islam in political life. However, there are significant differences over the degree to which the legal system should be based on Islam.
 
Dcdrac said:
Most Muslims Want Democracy, Personal Freedoms, and Islam in Political Life
Click to expand...
The hilited part is pretty much the antithesis of the first 2, isn't it?

That's not democracy or freedom, it's tyranny of the majority.
 
HoverBoarder said:
It was somewhat unfair to the Jewish taxpayers who were initially paying for the group. Initially, the Ultra-Orthadox were allowed to collect welfare from the government to attend religious classes (they still are), were exempt from conscription, and could have as many kids as they wanted on the government dime.
Click to expand...
Its all taxpayers. And there's no initial, its ongoing. Currently, those orthodox that do opt to go to the army, get a ridiculous amount of benefits before, during and after their service compared to myself, the druze, bedoins, christians I have served with and am currently on reserve duty with (on leave).

It is an unhealthy situation politically, socially, and economically; and as someone whose US tax dollars directly supports that behavior, I see it as somewhat troubling. Especially when they are allowed to engage in gender discrimination which is supported and protected by their special status.
Click to expand...
Its unsustainable, yes. But I would rather force these ultra-orthodox Jews to join the army, do their part, even in their segregated bases, ie ultra-orthodox males only, and receive the same benefits that I currently receive, or increase these benefits. These ultra-orthodox have threatened to leave Israel if this occurs. I would like to see then move, and have the most densely populated area in the world, AFAIK, Bnei Brak, emptied.

I would be more concerned about Israeli tax shekels supporting US behavior, but then again, that's how the private military industry works. And yes, Israeli tax shekels far exceed the US tax dollars supporting Israel.
 
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told an annual anti-Israel protest in Tehran on Friday that the Jewish state was a cancerous tumor that will soon be excised. He also said that Israel is an insult to all humanity.

I'm sure his words were taken out of context.;)
 
applecorped said:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told an annual anti-Israel protest in Tehran on Friday that the Jewish state was a cancerous tumor that will soon be excised. He also said that Israel is an insult to all humanity.

I'm sure his words were taken out of context.;)
Click to expand...
All lies and mistranslations!
 
applecorped said:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told an annual anti-Israel protest in Tehran on Friday that the Jewish state was a cancerous tumor that will soon be excised. He also said that Israel is an insult to all humanity.

I'm sure his words were taken out of context.;)
Click to expand...

Where is your evidence that he said this?
 
trustbutverify said:
Where is your evidence that he said this?
Click to expand...
You're skeptical about that, really? This is something said by Ahmadinejad regularly, going back years. The latest: http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/08/18/232881.html

Imagine if Israel regularly called Iran a cancerous tumor that must be removed, the usual suspects would be howling with outrage. But when Iran does it, ho hum who cares... they don't really mean it and besides it's a mistranslation and even if it isn't Iran can't actually destroy Israel.

The double standard is astounding.
 
WildCat said:
You're skeptical about that, really? This is something said by Ahmadinejad regularly, going back years. The latest: http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/08/18/232881.html

Imagine if Israel regularly called Iran a cancerous tumor that must be removed, the usual suspects would be howling with outrage. But when Iran does it, ho hum who cares... they don't really mean it and besides it's a mistranslation and even if it isn't Iran can't actually destroy Israel.

The double standard is astounding.
Click to expand...

Nothing astounds me anymore. Not when nearly every leftist-dominated forum in the world has an entire section devoted entirely to the hyper-critical, microscopic, day in, day out, week after week, month after month, year after year examination of one small country, which just happens to be composed of a people who were targeted for extinction, and remain openly avowed targets for extinction in some quarters.
 
WildCat said:
You're skeptical about that, really? This is something said by Ahmadinejad regularly, going back years. The latest: http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/08/18/232881.html

Imagine if Israel regularly called Iran a cancerous tumor that must be removed, the usual suspects would be howling with outrage. But when Iran does it, ho hum who cares... they don't really mean it and besides it's a mistranslation and even if it isn't Iran can't actually destroy Israel.

The double standard is astounding.
Click to expand...

Maybe these statements were made be a guy who just looked similar to Ahmadinejad, and the stupid Zio-press just jumped to conclusions.
 
You neo-cons will just accept any bankster propaganda that comes down the pike. Where is the videotape? Has Juan Cole verified the translation?
 
There's some argument in Israel over whether or not to hold negotiations on peace, but there still seems to be little likelihood that it will happen with the current Israeli government in power. As well as the problems with past negotiations.

JPost: Peres lauds Abbas's negotiations plea, PM rejects it

PA President Mahmoud Abbas’s plea on Channel 2 Friday for Israel to accept a two-state solution along the pre- 1967 lines was lauded by his counterpart, Shimon Peres, and rejected by Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Saturday night.

Peres praised Abbas’s courage, saying he had proved both in word and deed that Israel did have a genuine negotiating partner.

“Abu Mazen [Abbas] has condemned terror and has pledged that under his leadership there will not be a third intifada. He understands very well that the solution to the Palestinian refugee problem cannot be within Israeli territory, in order not to change the demographic character of Israel.

“But he has put out a hand to Israel to renew the peace process,” Peres said.

He continued that Abbas’s plea on TV was a matter of great significance, and that the desire for peace and a two-state solution also had a broad consensus behind it in Israel.

But the Prime Minister’s Office said that the only meaningful gesture Abbas could make would be to sit down and negotiate without preconditions.
Click to expand...

Also:

Haaretz: Livni joins Olmert's attack on Netanyahu over criticism of Abbas

Former Kadima chairwoman Tzipi Livni on Sunday echoed criticism by former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

In what appeared as the opening salvo of a joint campaign, both Livni and Olmert condemned Netanyahu for his statements against Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who, in an interview to Israel's Channel 2, said he views Palestine as the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as the capital.

Abbas admitted in the interview that as a Palestinian refugee from Safed he wants to return to the city, but said only as a tourist, because Safed is part of Israel. "I believe that the West Bank and Gaza is Palestine. And the other parts are Israel," Abbas said. "Now and forever."

Netanyahu rejected Abbas' statements, saying his words do not match his actions. Livni, however, praised the Palestinian president, saying her statements were "brave."

"These are the statements we heard in the negotiating room," Livni told Channel 2. "It is unfortunate that for four years, the Israeli government is telling the public that there is no partner for peace… for four years there have been no trust between the two sides. In order to enter negotiations, there needs to be trust. Instead, the foreign minister is leading a campaign to oust Abu Mazen."

"Whoever is interested in preserving a secure Jewish and democratic state, should embrace this interview," Livni said. "But peace has turned into a dirty word - whoever talks of an agreement is now considered a delusional leftist."
Click to expand...
 
I am not sure I like the title of the Jpost article. After all, it is Abbas which is still demanding preconditions before talks. In contrast to what you are claiming, there is no real argument in Israel about the utility of peace talks. No one is opposed to them (though one can argue whether Bibi is sincere when he say he welcomes talks). On the other hand, most think that such talks are likely to fail for various reasons. I would also guess that no one is expecting talks to start when the elections are due shortly.

Here is an article analyzing the Palestinian responses to Abbas' interview. It seems that Abbas had to backtrack from his statement, and that there is not much hope for compromise on the refugees:
What surprised Abbas was the fact that the strong condemnations were not only from Hamas and radical Palestinian groups, but also from ordinary Palestinians, including some of his political allies in the PLO.


If anything, the widespread denunciations show that the Palestinians remain strongly opposed to any form of concessions to Israel, especially with regards to the “right of return” for refugees to their former homes inside Israel.


But Abbas himself is partially responsible for the fact that Palestinians have been radicalized to a point where they see any talk of compromise with Israel as an act of “high treason.”


Over the years, Abbas has repeatedly declared that the “right of return” is a sacred issue and a “red line” that no Palestinian should ever dare to cross.
Click to expand...
 
Doctor Evil said:
I am not sure I like the title of the Jpost article. After all, it is Abbas which is still demanding preconditions before talks. In contrast to what you are claiming, there is no real argument in Israel about the utility of peace talks. No one is opposed to them (though one can argue whether Bibi is sincere when he say he welcomes talks). On the other hand, most think that such talks are likely to fail for various reasons. I would also guess that no one is expecting talks to start when the elections are due shortly.

Here is an article analyzing the Palestinian responses to Abbas' interview. It seems that Abbas had to backtrack from his statement, and that there is not much hope for compromise on the refugees:
Click to expand...

Why would no one in Israel be opposed to peace negotiations?

The Israelis have the upper hand in terms of settlement expansion, varying rights based on race, full control over borders, etc. And for many on the right in Israel, especially Likud, there has been reluctance to engage in negotiations and possibly threaten their ability to continue construction expansion and their ability to retain legal preferential treatment based on race.

That is a calculus that is not shared by many on the left and middle in Israel. For them, the increased stability, predictability, and reduction of tensions that could develop as a result of negotiations are more in Israel's National security and economic interests.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom