Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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I wasn't aware that "prominent Englishman" necessarily gave one suitable qualifications to comment on American constitutional law and the forensic authentication of documents. Monckton also holds a number of controversial views and has used his influence to browbeat scientists who disagree with them. ...
One clown citing another.

The thing that bugs me is that birthers, who fall all over themselves professing their patriotism, also fawn all over some foreign twit with a title. We had a revolution to get rid of stuff like that. Yet here they go trying to wave away the Constitution, throw out states' rights (Hawaii's, in this case), and sucking up to Lord Haw-Haw's idiot step-grandson.

The only real question is: why do birthers hate America so much?

However, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer for those throwing tantrums in this thread is that they are just trolling. In fact, if ever there were such things as "disinformation agents" of which rocky/FF88 is so fond, the resident birthers would be prime candidates - planted here to make birthers look like idiots. But that would be a waste of effort, since the birthers have done such a bang-up job themselves of doing just that.
 
His Lordship can mock Hawaii's laws all he wants, but the denial of access to original vital records to all but officers of relevant bureau, for the purpose of protecting them against such things as damage and wear, is enshrined as the first sentence of section 338-18 of the Hawaii State Code. Monckton's mockery does not change the fact that under the law, authorized parties are entitled to at most a certified copy of a vital record.

Perhaps that is the explanation for Gov. Ambercrombie's fruitless venture locate or view the original? Because he might damage it? Baloney. Records are there so they can be viewed. There are all kinds of statutes that officials can hide behind, but there is no valid reason for not allowing the Governor to verify that the document exists, nor is there any problem with allowing a law enforcement officer, even from another state, to view same in an investigation of a possible crime. The law, in fact, allows for such exceptions, leaving discretion to the officials involved. Of course, in this case, the "crime" may well involve health and hospital officials, so it's understandable why they won't allow anyone to see the document -- most likely, because it simply does not exist.
 
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There are all kinds of statutes that officials can hide behind...

Asked and answered. You don't get to invent a new system of laws that fits your theory. You're desperately trying to claim various people are behaving irrationally when they obey the law. Sorry, your argument was wishful thinking three years ago when first used by the Birthers, and it's still wishful thinking.

but there is no valid reason for not allowing the Governor to verify that the document exists...

The document has already been verified to exist by the officer who is in charge of verifying the existence of documents in the state of Hawaii. Once again you're making up new rules by naming another individual who "must" confirm the certificate.

...nor is there any problem with allowing a law enforcement officer, even from another state, to view same in an investigation of a possible crime.

Asked and answered.

...most likely, because it simply does not exist.

Speculation. The reason has been given; you simply choose to believe something else because that's your predisposition.
 
I wasn't aware that "prominent Englishman" necessarily gave one suitable qualifications to comment on American constitutional law and the forensic authentication of documents. Monckton also holds a number of controversial views and has used his influence to browbeat scientists who disagree with them. But please, if you want to cite him in support of your case, by all means do so. The credibility of your sources to date would not be materially affected by it.



Translation: "If you don't agree with me, you're stupid." As a matter of fact, a vast number of highly intelligent, well informed, people are not convinced by birther nonsense and can cite good reasons why. Sorry, you don't get to browbeat people who disagree with you.

No, like all Birthers he simply throws out the established statutory methods of certifying candidates for office and substitutes his own. He's the invited speaker at a small gathering of Tea Party members. He offers up the standard FUD about a constitutional crisis, omitting that the relevant authorities have already determined Obama's eligibility. What are we to say about arguments that work only when prefaced by appropriate fear-mongering? He's so audacious as to say that until the question is "resolved," Obama cannot govern effectively. That rhetoric is simply ludicrous in the face of the near-frantic efforts of Birthers these days to have their lost cases reconsidered. It's the Birthers who won't let the thing go, so let their hypocrisy speak for itself.

Birthers don't argue for applying the standard practice; they argue for special practices they invent. The sum total of his argument is, "In Britain we do it differently." Whoop-de-doo. That has zero relevance for whether common, accepted, and authorized practices have been followed in the United States to certify the President's birthplace. He's followed the same tired line of Birther reasoning that's been around for three years: "We don't care what the law is, we want you to follow our prescription for how to verify someone's birthplace."

His Lordship can mock Hawaii's laws all he wants, but the denial of access to original vital records to all but officers of relevant bureau, for the purpose of protecting them against such things as damage and wear, is enshrined as the first sentence of section 338-18 of the Hawaii State Code. Monckton's mockery does not change the fact that under the law, authorized parties are entitled to at most a certified copy of a vital record.

Long ago refuted: you don't get to make up new rules that suit your agenda.



Well for starters he says, "It's not for me, to tell you as a non-expert, that [Obama's birth cerfificate] is not [genuine]." (6:20, emphasis mine) He's not an expert in the forensic authentication of documents, and people who are experts have already spoken to that point.

And no, he himself does not prove that the birth certificate (in any form) is a fraud. He doesn't even suggest how it might be proven a fraud. No, instead he himself infers that it "must" be a fraud on no stronger grounds than his assertion that the officials in question do not do what he says should be done were it genuine. That's exactly what it means to beg the question, and it is the fallacy the Birthers have been committing for going on three years now.

What's his evidence of forgery? He watched a YouTube clip of Joe Arpaio's press conference. Yes, that's all he does: he parrots our dear sheriff uncritically.

Not just uncritically -- he grossly misrepresents Arpaio's obvious zeal in furthering his investigation of Obama, making His Lordship at best a highly biased purveyor of hearsay. In any case that's very old news. The "forensic" examination of the PDF is neither relevant (since it wasn't the version used to certify Obama's eligibility) nor valid since real experts (not Arpaio's shills) have subsequently conclusively debunked his fumbling efforts to discredit the PDF.

And because you refuse to familiarize yourself with the present state of the debate, we have to go through it all again for you.



No, he commits yet another standard Birther error: that of assuming the authentication pertinent to his certification as eligible to the office of President must derive from the PDF copy. To that end he simply produces his own doctored copy of the PDF, complete with the (inauthentic) reproduction of the seal.

Nor can Lord Monckton produce an explicit authentication of his certificate from the registrar of vital records in Hawaii. So no, he has not in the least duplicated what Birthers claim has been done in Obama's case.

Just because he is a peer doesn't mean he isn't also wrong. His reading of the law is wrong and has been addressed by competent American legal authority. Upon that reading of the law hangs his inference of forgery, so amen to that. He has no direct proof; he simply directs you to Joe Arpaio, whose allegations were addressed long before His Lordship took the podium in that clip.

The existence of layers in the long form document proves it is a digital creation, and not a scan of the original. If the document were scanned, there would be no layers. I would be a flat document. End of story.
 
The existence of layers in the long form document proves it is a digital creation, and not a scan of the original. If the document were scanned, there would be no layers. I would be a flat document. End of story.

a simple scan of a color document that size is huge, several megabytes at least.

Far too big to post on the internet.

Tell me, how did they get the file size down without compromising the image quality?
 
Tell me, how did they get the file size down without compromising the image quality?

No, he's talking about layers in terms of the PDF data structures. The claim was made that since the released PDF contains more than one such layer, it cannot be the product of a scan, which they say would produce only one layer containing the scanned pixel map. However it was very quickly ascertained that the premise of scans producing only single-layer PDFs was not true. The Birthers' expectations are in error.

Basically this is an old claim that was debunked years ago. Robert is apparently frantically Googling around for Birther arguments. It's only a matter of time before he starts talking about Mara Zebest.
 
hey Robert, is this you?

Birther-or-Bust.jpg
 
The existence of layers in the long form document proves it is a digital creation, and not a scan of the original. If the document were scanned, there would be no layers. I would be a flat document. End of story.

Wrong. Just absolutely wrong.
 
Records are there so they can be viewed.

By the subject of that record, or by officials with a lawful reason to do so.

There are all kinds of statutes that officials can hide behind, but there is no valid reason for not allowing the Governor to verify that the document exists, nor is there any problem with allowing a law enforcement officer, even from another state, to view same in an investigation of a possible crime. The law, in fact, allows for such exceptions, leaving discretion to the officials involved.

Officials following the law aren't "hiding behind it" they are obeying it. They are doing what we, the people, have told them to do through our elected representatives. Law enforcement officers investigating crimes are of course allowed to view certain records, provided they are within their jurisdiction and/or have a warrant.

Of course, in this case, the "crime" may well involve health and hospital officials, so it's understandable why they won't allow anyone to see the document -- most likely, because it simply does not exist.

No, they just aren't going to allow any yahoos to go and look at the personal information of a US citizen who do not have a warrant or a lawful reason to. Especially where they have already certified the publically available version as being correct.

Given your views on rights, I would think this would be a non-issue. He has a right for his personal information to be kept private, except as required by law. How would you react if 2 guys show up from out of state, demand to see your personal info without lawful reasons and the clerk shows them ? Especially if the courts have already ruled on that very issue in your favour?
 
So what's the question? Fact is, even most Republican politicians believe the Obama is legit brainwash.

Wait, they were brainwashed? Are you sure?! Brainwashing takes 13 to 17 weeks at an isolated site. I'm sure I would have noticed if the majority of Republican politicians disappeared for 13 to 17 weeks.

Maybe they were hypnotized. Hypnotism takes only a few minutes. Are you sure you are not talking about hypnotism, RP; that would make a lot more sense.
 
The existence of layers in the long form document proves it is a digital creation, and not a scan of the original. If the document were scanned, there would be no layers. I would be a flat document. End of story.

You've resorted to quoting well debunked birther myths? Nice... :rolleyes:
 
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