Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Myriad]

Myriad - I won't even bother attempting to explain Justinian's explanations of the subject matter of what a spiritual being is or is not capable of. I would refer you to Ron's works on the subject instead of my rewriting everything he wrote on the subject.

You don't know what "an OT postulate converted into inspiration" means either? Darn. It sounded like it meant something interesting but apparently not.

Here's my read. OT superpowers, like Xenu, are embarrassing anachronisms in the Scientology scripture. Unlike Xenu, though, they used to be front and center, so it's harder to hide them or play dumb about them now. (Don't forget that around the time this stuff was invented, serious psi research still appeared to hold real promise.) But now no one wants to acknowledge them any more, and they certainly can't do them let alone demonstrate them.

Yet they don't want to drop them either, because they're woven inextricably through the LRH canon and because they probably still help pull in a few of the flakier recruits.

So, Justinian2 does the best he can to imply superpowers, saying that an OT "can effect changes just by thinking about them" and "OT phenomena are like the things that happen in Matrix." The first is intended to sound like telekinesis, while references to The Matrix are sure to bring to mind iconic scenes like slowing down time to dodge bullets.

But he doesn't actually say telekinesis, or what kind of changes an OT can effect just by thinking about them, or what things that happen in The Matrix he's actually referring to. It doesn't take an OT to effect changes in one's own feelings or ideation just by thinking about them, and the things that happen in The Matrix include people walking down hallways and a naked guy getting flushed into a sewer discharge. So, any claim that he referred to superpowers like telekinesis or slowing down time (coming with, perhaps, a request to demonstrate them) remains completely deniable.

It perhaps goes without saying that this kind of dissembling, with the consequent abrupt conversational halts and changes of subject, is not normal behavior. It belies the "we're just normal happy guys enjoying life with a little help from our e-meters" tone they try so hard to maintain.

More speculatively, when members and believers have to mince words and dissemble even to one another about their own core beliefs, I take it as a sign of impending schizm.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[fredcarr]

How do you think Scientology can do a better job of getting the word out? Especially in the face of so much material critical of the church?

I have read that only about one in a hundred people who take the initial series of courses sticks with it (say a year or more after) -- does that sound right?

Is there some way to both keep information exclusive and simultaneously reveal the value in Scientology that you have found?

We are always coming out with better introductory routes so I am pretty happy with that.

I figure if someone wants to just read material critical of the church then I'm not going to worry to much about getting the word out to them

There are a series of 19 online courses that one can take online for free which anyone is free to do. Not to mention the thousands (I can only hazard a guess the exact number) of web pages that we have on the net explaining various aspect of the church.

We have video covering the basics as well.

We donate books to libraries so individuals can find out about it that way as well.

Plus people can always go to a local church, mission, study group, etc. Lots of ways to learn about it. I'm sure there will be additional programs released in the future to make it even easier to learn about.

I chuckle when I read about how secretive we are when we put so much effort into making it easy for anyone to learn.

I don't really know about the one in a hundred ratio, so can't comment about that. I do think our recent materials and classes make it far easier to learn than ever before.

We have taken the Dianetics book and have 4.5 hours of film on DVD explaining the different parts of the it that make it faster and easier to learn.

We have a service available in mos churches where one can come in and do a full weekend seminar for a hundred dollars and learn to counsel another and receive Dianetic counseling. (Of course one could do this at home.)

Then if one wishes to continue he can pay a one time donation of 250 dollars to continue this service counseling another and receiving counseling under an experienced Dianetics counselor for as long as one wishes. (6 months, 6 years, whatever.)

There are many more introductory services available now.

I've even given books away to people.

However I don't worry to much about the net. It is what it is. Why worry about it?

 

[fredcarr]

What you say sounds right. Scientology is losing the PR battle. And what else am I to do in a world with so much to explore and so little life to do it in. I cannot personally investigate every last thing I'm interested in. Efficiency is attractive if for no other reason than this.

No doubt about the world having so much to explore.

I wouldn't necessarily say its losing a PR battle. I read a recent report about how much people trust the net. Not a very high trust factor from what I recall.

Doesn't really matter. My PR is very good with most people that know me as it is with many of my friends and family that are Scientologists. I sleep easy at night. Last time I checked the media didn't have much nice things to say about anything at all.

 

[The Dark Lord]

So what about Xenu? Have you made it through the Wall of Fire yet, fredcarr? What do you think about it? Did it actually happen, or did your God, LRon just make it up?

Are you just going to ignore me because that's what your indoctrination instructs you to do?

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Fred has moved on from "buy the book" and "buy the DVD" to pay $350 dollars for counselling. He'd be the king of the upsell if anyone was buying.

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Is there some way to both keep information exclusive and simultaneously reveal the value in Scientology that you have found?

Is there a way to keep it secret and simultaneously not keep it secret? Something is not quite right here.

In a way I feel like I am watching a promotional video where the interviewer pretends to be asking a question to stage the promotional material with, eg ... "Tell us about Scientology's role in promoting Family Values, Chet..."

Except some of it is so bizarre. WTF.

 

[fredcarr]

Is there a way to keep it secret and simultaneously not keep it secret? Something is not quite right here.

In a way I feel like I am watching a promotional video where the interviewer pretends to be asking a question to stage the promotional material with, eg ... "Tell us about Scientology's role in promoting Family Values, Chet..."

Except some of it is so bizarre. WTF.

If you want to know about our program that addresses family values then http://www.thewaytohappiness.org would be a good place to start.

Don't even need to buy a book

 

[The Dark Lord]

So it looks like yes, fredcarr is just going to ignore the questions about Xenu. Presumably because that is what the church has ordered him to do.

At least Justinian had the courtesy to acknowledge that the Xenu story really exists. Even though he just told some lie about it being a metaphor or something.

 

[marplots]

So it looks like yes, fredcarr is just going to ignore the questions about Xenu. Presumably because that is what the church has ordered him to do.

At least Justinian had the courtesy to acknowledge that the Xenu story really exists. Even though he just told some lie about it being a metaphor or something.

What did you expect? Isn't this supposed to be information that is harmful to his spiritual well being?

If he did acknowledge it, how would that advance the conversation? Anyone who is interested can hear it in LRH's voice from a link posted earlier.

On a related note, I wonder if we could get Romney to flash his secret Mormon underwear on national TV.

 

[Krikkiter]

If you want to know about our program that addresses family values then http://www.thewaytohappiness.org would be a good place to start.

Don't even need to buy a book

Apparently they are out of free information kits. Maybe that's the one's for correctional officers like me*.

Also no free educators resource kits at the moment though the $20 DVD is in stock.

* not

ETA: Also no Free Restoring Self-Respect Resource Kit's either. Darn.

 

[Krikkiter]

May I also say that their free materials for educators and students are simply brilliant.

 

[The Dark Lord]

What did you expect?

I fully expected him to ignore me. I hoped I was wrong though.

Isn't this supposed to be information that is harmful to his spiritual well being?

Only if he hasn't reached OT-III yet. He claims to have been with the "church" for 30 years so it seems likely to me that he has.

If he did acknowledge it, how would that advance the conversation? Anyone who is interested can hear it in LRH's voice from a link posted earlier.

I want to hear what somebody who actually believes the Xenu story has to say about it. Or, alternately, if he doesn't believe it, why he believes other nonsense invented by the same conman.

 

[pakeha]

...
Then if one wishes to continue he can pay a one time donation of 250 dollars to continue this service counseling another and receiving counseling under an experienced Dianetics counselor for as long as one wishes. (6 months, 6 years, whatever.) ...

You mean auditing?

 

[fredcarr]

Apparently they are out of free information kits. Maybe that's the one's for correctional officers like me*.

Also no free educators resource kits at the moment though the $20 DVD is in stock.

* not

ETA: Also no Free Restoring Self-Respect Resource Kit's either. Darn.

Really? I had a friend recently order the free educators resource kit. She got it okay.

Edited to include this - I see the notice that it is out of stock. Oh well, guess your stuck with reading the free book online until they replenish their stock.

 

[Krikkiter]

Really? I had a friend recently order the free educators resource kit. She got it okay.

Edited to include this - I see the notice that it is out of stock. Oh well, guess your stuck with reading the free book online until they replenish their stock.

I can't find anything on that website that's free apart from the teaching and learning materials (most of which are just blank pages with lines on them). If it's the The Way To Happiness booklet you're referring to - the one that's included in the Educator's Materials download - then I've read some of it. I wouldn't recommend it for any self-respecting educator or anyone else for that matter.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Do they deliver on their claims or not?

I've already answered that above. They claim to be able to cure all disease, and to give people superpowers.

Do you think they deliver on their claims? If yes, then please provide evidence that they do. If no, then what are you trying to prove by continuing to post as if you think they might?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I chuckle when I read about how secretive we are when we put so much effort into making it easy for anyone to learn.

You're not secretive? Cool! Tell me about Xenu.

 

[marplots]

I've already answered that above. They claim to be able to cure all disease, and to give people superpowers.

Do you think they deliver on their claims? If yes, then please provide evidence that they do. If no, then what are you trying to prove by continuing to post as if you think they might?

My question came from looking over their site at scientology.org. I couldn't find much in the way of "superpower" claims. It all sounded pretty much like spiritual stuff, or training style self-improvement. I haven't read Dianetics, and I understand there are other claims made in that from what has been posted. I have also read that overt "miracle" style claims are not made until someone is already immersed in the organization, and that explains why it might not show up on their website.

Certainly, if someone tells me they can do miraculous things, I'd like to see that for myself.

I'd like to hear what fredcarr has to say about what he was promised and what was delivered.

 

[shuttlt]

Marplots,

May I recommend this book - Fads and Fallacies. Chapter 22 is on Scientology. The book is from 1957, so it gives you a view into the early days.

There is a Google Books version as well, though of course with selected pages missed out.

 

[Krikkiter]

Advance! Issue 20 (Aug/Sep 1973)

"There I was, outside late at night, far from my body, watching two fellows suspiciously walking by an apartment house. There was a girl of about 22 inside the apartment house getting ready for bed. A short time passed and she was asleep. Then the two fellows threw a garbage can under her window, opened it and broke in. The girl didn't have a chance. She was stabbed as she attempted to yell. The place was ransacked and the men ran.

In the morning I was in quite a muddle. I knew I'd see headlines about the incident in the newspaper, but they weren't there. All of a sudden I realized it hadn't happened yet! It was going to happen tonight!

I was greatly relieved and thought "What can I do?" I decided to exteriorize at the same time that night and handle it.

That night I went there, saw the same guys doing the same thing they did the night before and the girl doing the same thing, too.

But as the two walked by the apartment this time I put out an intention to divert them from the very idea of it.

They walked right on by, never even noticing the window of the girl's apartment. She had a good night's sleep and woke up with the dawn. -- Brian Sheen, OT"

... and so on.

From http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_ot_miracles.php