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Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

DuvalHMFIC said:
Your first mistake is thinking that there is actually a state of mind known as "clear." Hubbard made it up, and made it the cornerstone of his early teachings. Once It was, ahem, clear that there was no such state as clear, he upped the ante (OT levels) to keep the charade going.

Why do you think Scientology is so anti-psychiatry? There are mountains of evidence that psychiatry helps you, much more than some anecdotal evidence of auditing. Hubbard knew this early on, and started his anti-psychiatry stance. Why in the world would you want to audit when there is a much better process known as psychiatry? Because psychiatrists are evil. More nonsense.
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Clear is a state above sane. Are you saying that such a state doesn't exist or shouldn't exist?

From the legal definition:

Insanity is having a serious mental illness or being extremely foolish. (noun)

1.An example of insanity is a personality disorder.
2.An example of insanity is jumping out of an airplane without a parachute.
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I see sanity as a definition government uses to describe a fully brainwashed and indoctrinated person. By the definition of government it is sane to pay taxes and go to war.
 
Justinian2 said:
Clear is a state above sane. Are you saying that such a state doesn't exist or shouldn't exist?

From the legal definition:



I see sanity as a definition government uses to describe a fully brainwashed and indoctrinated person. By the definition of government it is sane to pay taxes and go to war.
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a) I think that these things are sane.
b) The government doesn't define sanity.
c) Sanity is a measure of the ability to function as a member of society, so I wouldn't think that there could, conceptually, be a stronger version of it.
 
DuvalHMFIC said:
Your first mistake is thinking that there is actually a state of mind known as "clear." Hubbard made it up, and made it the cornerstone of his early teachings. Once It was, ahem, clear that there was no such state as clear, he upped the ante (OT levels) to keep the charade going.

Why do you think Scientology is so anti-psychiatry? There are mountains of evidence that psychiatry helps you, much more than some anecdotal evidence of auditing. Hubbard knew this early on, and started his anti-psychiatry stance. Why in the world would you want to audit when there is a much better process known as psychiatry? Because psychiatrists are evil. More nonsense.
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In every recent mass killing, you will find the perp. was under the care of a psychiatrist. How can someone get better if he sees a physiatrist and gets a prescription drug as the only therapy?
 
Justinian2 said:
Clear is a state above sane. Are you saying that such a state doesn't exist or shouldn't exist?

From the legal definition:



I see sanity as a definition government uses to describe a fully brainwashed and indoctrinated person. By the definition of government it is sane to pay taxes and go to war.
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I see "clear" as being nothing but a complete fleece:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_(Scientology)

"It is estimated that the cost of reaching the Clear state in Scientology is $128,000."

But of course, I'm open to evidence...
 
marplots said:
Who gets the money?
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Does that really matter, marplots?

Justinian2 said:
...Not only does the Belgium government discriminate, but they practice Goebbels type brainwashing and propaganda. Wonderful government this Belgium. Who's behind these idiocies?
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Justinian, once again you're evading the subject of an OTVIII's death.



Justinian2 said:
...The effort of Scientology auditing is always to locate the brainwashing that has been done to a person and to ask the person if they want to keep their brainwashing induced decision or change it. Isn't this the opposite of brainwashing? Isn't this removal of brainwashing?

What I mean to say is that it is totally wrong to say that Scientology brainwashes people when the opposite is the truth.
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You keep using the word brainwashing, but I don't think it means what you say it does.
Justinian, you've been on both sides of the cans and you know how to lead a PC to where you want them to be.
How do you think it was possible for an OTVIII to break-down as Lisa Ferguson did?
Did you know her supervisor?


Justinian2 said:
I attended a speech (in 1972) given by Dianna and Quentin when they were teenagers. ...
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And 5 years later, one of those teenagers died of a drug overdose.
How was it his supervisor didn't steer him away from that?
 
Twiler said:
a) I think that these things are sane.
b) The government doesn't define sanity.
c) Sanity is a measure of the ability to function as a member of society, so I wouldn't think that there could, conceptually, be a stronger version of it.
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Although I think the Olympics is absurd in their attempt to define the BEST athlete in the world, it does show that some people perform better than others. That someone can cross the finish line doesn't mean much. Saying that a person is sane doesn't mean much either.

The point is that people can do merely better than walking across the finish line. Likewise, a person can do more than just be sane.
 
Justinian2 said:
Although I think the Olympics is absurd in their attempt to define the BEST athlete in the world, it does show that some people perform better than others. That someone can cross the finish line doesn't mean much. Saying that a person is sane doesn't mean much either.

The point is that people can do merely better than walking across the finish line. Likewise, a person can do more than just be sane.
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People can be better than sane in many different ways, just as the Olympics exhibits people good at many different sports. It can't be simplified down to one scale.
 
Justinian2 said:
Although I think the Olympics is absurd in their attempt to define the BEST athlete in the world, it does show that some people perform better than others. That someone can cross the finish line doesn't mean much. Saying that a person is sane doesn't mean much either.

The point is that people can do merely better than walking across the finish line. Likewise, a person can do more than just be sane.
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It's interesting to see just how far you'll go to avoid discussing those OTs' deaths.
Did those deaths really have no message for you?
Do you really think an SP was responsible?
 
Krikkiter said:
Wow. Any comments Justinian?
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Governments sacrifice people's children all over the world. They tell people to go into harm's way all over the world for the sake of some politician's cause and all for trivial pay.

Scientology asks people to un-brainwash themselves for their sake, the sake of their families, the sake of their company, the sake of their country, the sake of earth and for every other reason.

What do I think? I think the world is crazy and it's time to acknowledge that gruesome fact.
 
Justinian2 said:
Governments sacrifice people's children all over the world. They tell people to go into harm's way all over the world for the sake of some politician's cause and all for trivial pay.

Scientology asks people to un-brainwash themselves for their sake, the sake of their families, the sake of their company, the sake of their country, the sake of earth and for every other reason.

What do I think? I think the world is crazy and it's time to acknowledge that gruesome fact.
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I think that scientology was put together as a means of extracting money from people. I don't think the world is crazy.
 
Originally Posted by marplots:
Who gets the money?
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pakeha said:
Does that really matter, marplots?
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I think it must. If Scientology is a scam and a con, as has been repeatedly claimed in this thread, wouldn't you expect some beneficiary? Some person, perhaps David Miscavage?

If the money goes to the church (or largely so), how is that different than any other church? And if a poster thinks that all religions are scams and cons, that's fine, but why then point it out as if it were some unique feature of Scientology?

Hubbard is gone. The Freezone has emerged. It's as if you had Bernie Madoff in jail but then claimed investing in general is a scam and a con because of him.

These sorts of labels kill real criticism. Church members are deluded or brainwashed. The whole thing is a scam. Anything said in response would then be the results of brainwashing in service of a crime. No testimony could break through. It becomes a back and forth of "No, I'm not" vs. "Yes you are!"

Is that all there is here? Seems shallow.

Here is a claim from their website ( http://www.scientology.org/what-is-scientology/basic-principles-of-scientology.html ):
Scientology is a twenty-first-century religion. It comprises a vast body of knowledge extending from certain fundamental truths, and prime among those truths: Man is a spiritual being endowed with abilities well beyond those which he normally envisions. He is not only able to solve his own problems, accomplish his goals and gain lasting happiness, but he can achieve new states of awareness he may never have dreamed possible.
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Is that part correct, incorrect, other? I only ask because we should evaluate something based on the claims made and whether they pan out or not.
 
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