Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

[ponderingturtle]

In the real world, causality is multifactorial. 'Post hoc, ergo propter hoc' is a great concept to apply to simple cause and effect, things like 'I kicked it, therefore it broke' but not so applicable to things like how much of a certain meat product sells in a certain year which depend on thousands of interrelated (and unrelated) factors. For Watson, the question is not if he's the direct cause, but rather if he can plausibly claim to be part of the cause. Since he's TRYING to be part of the cause, and there was an effect, I'm more likely to give him some credit.

So the main effect was that they can claim responsibility for the doubling of the quota, but now they don't reach it?

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

If you find the need to reduce a complicated situation to a sound-bite then go right ahead and construct that narrative from the facts. That's not the narrative I'd personally construct but whatever winds your clock.

I'd personally look at it as the sea shepards reduced the whale harvest from 400ish to 200ish for a couple of years, causing the whaling fleet to increase their quota and work a lot harder. Even so, they only succeed in increasing whale harvest briefly, before it fell back to its previous levels regardless of the increased quota and effort. To me that looks like a recipe for whale meat getting expensive, which is fine by me.

 

[Marduk]

But since the increased quota they don't catch as near the quota anymore.

Its almost as if the Japanese have been influenced by someone other than sea shepherd isn't it

 

[ponderingturtle]

If you find the need to reduce a complicated situation to a sound-bite then go right ahead and construct that narrative from the facts. That's not the narrative I'd personally construct but whatever winds your clock.

I'd personally look at it as the sea shepards reduced the whale harvest from 400ish to 200ish for a couple of years, causing the whaling fleet to increase their quota and work a lot harder. Even so, they only succeed in increasing whale harvest briefly, before it fell back to its previous levels regardless of the increased quota and effort. To me that looks like a recipe for whale meat getting expensive, which is fine by me.

And the end result is no change. Averaged out they have had no effect. Two low years a surge to cover pent up demand and the recovering from a glut on the market.

 

[theprestige]

I'd personally look at it as the sea shepards reduced the whale harvest from 400ish to 200ish for a couple of years.

A moment ago you were saying that causality was multifactorial, and that it was improper to reduce complex questions to simplistic sound-bites.

Now you're crediting SSA with a 50% decrease in harvest!

Do you have any details on which factors carry more or less weight, when determining multifactorial causality in this real-world scenario?

Because it sure seems to me like you're crediting SSA with having an impact simply because a) they were there, b) they claim to have an impact, and c) you want them to be right. And at the same time, you're defending the lack of actual data supporting their claim, by saying causality is complex and multifactorial.

So how much impact do you really think SSA has had? Can you quantify for us your model, the one that credits them with a 50% decrease in harvest?

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Causality IS multifactorial, but if that's not enough to stop folks from creating a narrative that denigrates the sea shepards' contribution, just because they don't like the organization, then it's not enough to stop me from creating a similar narrative that DOES give them credit. See?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Let's face it, if you're eating whale meat you're missing a chromosome or two.

Given that I have stated earlier in this thread I have consumed whale meat (knowingly, intentionally, and thought it quite tasty), is this a personal attack?

Furthermore, there's nothing inherently wrong with eating whales, just as there's nothing inherently wrong with eating cows. In fact, there's a fair likelihood that in the next 72 hours I will be doing it again. It'll be minke whale, the cows of the sea.

And no, I'm not missing any chromosomes.

 

[theprestige]

Causality IS multifactorial, but if that's not enough to stop folks from creating a narrative that denigrates the sea shepards' contribution, just because they don't like the organization, then it's not enough to stop me from creating a similar narrative that DOES give them credit. See?

I see. I thought you were arguing for a better, more accurate narrative. You're actually just arguing for a different narrative. Carry on!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

AAAS meeting on rights of whales, etc.

The Economist reported on a meeting where the question of whether or not whales and the like had rights was discussed: "The proposition that whales have rights is founded on the idea that they have a high degree of intelligence, and also have self-awareness of the sort that humans do. That is a controversial suggestion, but there is evidence to support it. Lori Marino of Emory University, in Atlanta, Georgia, reviewed this evidence."

 

[Xulld]

The Economist reported on a meeting where the question of whether or not whales and the like had rights was discussed: "The proposition that whales have rights is founded on the idea that they have a high degree of intelligence, and also have self-awareness of the sort that humans do. That is a controversial suggestion, but there is evidence to support it. Lori Marino of Emory University, in Atlanta, Georgia, reviewed this evidence."

Interesting, however IMHO intelligence is not enough. The capability to interact in society and follow rules is also a key factor is the ability to express rights. Protection is not always the same as the ability to express rights.

For the reasons outlined by Dr Marino, he claimed, cetaceans do indeed count as persons and therefore have moral rights—though ones appropriate to their species, which may therefore differ from those that would be accorded a human (for example, the right not to be removed from their natural environment).

Seems like it addresses my angle, if not the specifics.

 

[theprestige]

The capability to interact in society and follow rules is also a key factor is [sic] the ability to express rights

Now I'm starting to wonder if SSA have rights!

 

[Marcus]

There is something I am wondering, in the current season the Japanese are successfully preventing the Shepherds from finding the factory ship by following them and keeping the factory appraised of their position so they can evade detection.

Why is this an issue? Shouldn't the Shepherds (and the Japanese for that matter) be able to locate vessels they are interested in by utilizing satellite resources?

 

[Ryokan]

As far as I am aware, no one on Earth is at risk of starving to death if they don't hunt whales. No one at all, anywhere.

That goes for quite a lot of animals that we hunt and eat.

Anyway, Watson isn't just hunting Japanese ships. I don't know if he has sunk any Japanese ones, but he has sunk several Norwegian whaling ships.

 

[Macgyver1968]

There is something I am wondering, in the current season the Japanese are successfully preventing the Shepherds from finding the factory ship by following them and keeping the factory appraised of their position so they can evade detection.

Why is this an issue? Shouldn't the Shepherds (and the Japanese for that matter) be able to locate vessels they are interested in by utilizing satellite resources?

In order to do that you would need a GPS reciever attached to a sat phone...and sneak it aboard the other vessel. SS tried this a couple years ago. They attached a GPS transponder on the side of one of the whaling ships. I think it was a refueling ship. They got data from the unit for about 12 hours...and it either fell off the hull of the ship...or the Japanese found it, and knocked it off. I'm not sure if they ever tried that again.

 

[Seismosaurus]

There is something I am wondering, in the current season the Japanese are successfully preventing the Shepherds from finding the factory ship by following them and keeping the factory appraised of their position so they can evade detection.

Why is this an issue? Shouldn't the Shepherds (and the Japanese for that matter) be able to locate vessels they are interested in by utilizing satellite resources?

Real time satellite surveillance of a large swathe of the antarctic ocean? The Sea Shepherds don't have a fraction of the necessary resources - hell, the US government would have to mount a major effort to even try and do that. Even today, finding a ship somewhere on the surface of the ocean is a difficult task, especially when that ship is trying to avoid being found.

Their best bet would probably be to follow the factory ship out of port and stay with it; they presumably know the thing's home port, and learning when it was coming out wouldn't be too hard. But even that wouldn't be easy - some ports are heavily trafficked, and picking one ship out of many isn't a simple thing. Nor is sitting off the coast for long periods just waiting - eats fuel, eats stores, wears the machinery, wears the crew. Sitting in port waiting is easy, but involves being in a Japanese port, which I imagine wouldn't go well for them either.

 

[Marcus]

That explains it I guess. They weren't able to wait outside the japanese port but it looked like they might get an early catch when they deployed their ships along their probable route around Australia. Probably would have had more luck if there were more competent seamen in the whale whacko ranks. It didn't help when they had to break off the search to rescue their flimsy fiberglass trimaran.

 

[Stacko]

Has anyone heard any updates on the case?

 

[Macgyver1968]

Has anyone heard any updates on the case?

Looks like the Walrus jumped bail...surprise surprise

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2018767582_apeugermanyseashepherd.html

FRANKFURT, Germany —

A German court has ordered environmental activist Paul Watson of the group Sea Shepherd re-arrested, saying Wednesday that he skipped bail and apparently left the country.

The 61-year-old Canadian was first arrested May 13 at Frankfurt Airport on a Costa Rican warrant that claimed he had endangered the crew of a fishing vessel a decade ago. Watson was released days later on a (EURO)250,000 ($320,000) bond and ordered to report regularly to authorities while Costa Rica's extradition request was considered.

"His attorney now says that his client informed him by telephone that he has left Germany for an unknown destination," the Hesse regional court in a statement, noting that Watson had failed to report to authorities since Sunday.

 

[Monza]

Forget a reality show that pits the Sea Shepards against the Deadliest Catch guys. What we need is Dog the Bounty Hunter in a speed boat.

 

[Macgyver1968]

Forget a reality show that pits the Sea Shepards against the Deadliest Catch guys. What we need is Dog the Bounty Hunter in a speed boat.

Oh hell ya. I want to see Dog's wife...with the super huge titties running after the mouth breather and tackling the **** out of him.