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Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

This is the official Church of Scientology spin on what I said:
http://www.scientology.org/david-miscavige.html

He is further remembered for the fact that barely a year after entering the Scientology religious order, the Sea Organization, at the age of 16, he was among a handful of people selected to work directly with L. Ron Hubbard. After personal instruction from Mr. Hubbard, the 17-year-old David Miscavige served as his Director of Photography for the first Scientology training films.

Later, at Mr. Hubbard’s request, Mr. Miscavige served as the senior executive supervising ecclesiastical missions to Scientology Churches around the world. By the age of 18, David Miscavige had become the individual L. Ron Hubbard called upon to carry out the most important assignments. No Church executive in history ever received more direct communication from L. Ron Hubbard than Mr. Miscavige.

In 1983, L. Ron Hubbard described a heroic Church executive who cleaned the ranks of rogue staff attempting to seize control of Scientology while Mr. Hubbard was engaged in intensive research and absent from the Church. As Mr. Hubbard himself phrased it:

“So forgive me for not managing the Church when it almost fell into hostile hands. It all came out all right. Why? Because real Scientologists made sure it did. My faith was justified.”

That real Scientologist L. Ron Hubbard spoke of was David Miscavige.
 
The most objectionable part to me was the Miscavige era timeshare sales type techniques the Church of Miscavige employed.

The next objectionable thing was the Miscavige era 'Sec checking' the main church would use. The tortorous part of this was it was called "NOT AUDITING" which is not "Nots Auditing" but is actually the reverse of auditing. The auditor waits for you to confess to a crime/overt while you are paying the hundreds of dollars an hour for his services.

The Freezone has never done any of the above.

The Church of Scientology under Hubbard and before the FBI infiltration and MisCavige, did this much differently and even got good results. Comparing these processes under Hubbard to those under Miscavige is like comparing the use of pepper as a spice instead of as the main course.

Miscavige was never an auditor and never a clear or OT. He rose to the top possibly with a forged signature. LRH may have granted him the right to sign his signature in order to escape prosecution for Scientology's counter espionage against the FBI.

Whatever Miscavige is or isn't, he was able to fool a lot of people who were supposed to be Clears, including Hubbard himself. You can argue that his disciplinary techniques are a bit severe, but they reflect Hubbard's philosophy pretty well (Hubbard started the practice of throwing "bad" Sea Org members into the water with their hands tied behind their backs).

Even his all out war with critics is in line with LRon. Hubbard is after all, the one behind "Fair Play" and "Operation Snow White". Neither one reflects the wise, enlightened leader that CoS members want to worship.

In Miscavige, you have the final product of the Church's teachings. He grew up in Scientology and has never had to deal with the outside world. So when you couple the rampant narcissism of Hubbard's philosophy, with his "the rules don't apply to us" attitude, then add a church membership taught not to think critically, you get a neo-fascist like Miscavige. He saw the weaknesses in the system and exploited them.
 
Whatever Miscavige is or isn't, he was able to fool a lot of people who were supposed to be Clears, including Hubbard himself. You can argue that his disciplinary techniques are a bit severe, but they reflect Hubbard's philosophy pretty well (Hubbard started the practice of throwing "bad" Sea Org members into the water with their hands tied behind their backs).

Even his all out war with critics is in line with LRon. Hubbard is after all, the one behind "Fair Play" and "Operation Snow White". Neither one reflects the wise, enlightened leader that CoS members want to worship.

In Miscavige, you have the final product of the Church's teachings. He grew up in Scientology and has never had to deal with the outside world. So when you couple the rampant narcissism of Hubbard's philosophy, with his "the rules don't apply to us" attitude, then add a church membership taught not to think critically, you get a neo-fascist like Miscavige. He saw the weaknesses in the system and exploited them.

Miscavige was a delivery boy. He was a messenger boy. Miscavige's rise to power was as laudible as Bernie Madoff's rise to power. Look at all the people Bernie fooled.

I disagree with all that you said. I especially disagree with the highlited statement.
 
Miscavige was a delivery boy. He was a messenger boy. Miscavige's rise to power was as laudible as Bernie Madoff's rise to power. Look at all the people Bernie fooled.

I disagree with all that you said. I especially disagree with the highlited statement.

You can call him what you want, but Misgavige was brought up by the church, it's the only life he's ever known. With no other outside influences to blame, he turned out to be quite the piece of work. With all those Clears around him, he still became a complete tyrant. As to how he came to power, again he was surrounded by Clears who had no chance against him and his thugs. Being a Clear doesn't seem to be much of an advantage in life.

As to Hubbard himself, Operation Snow White and Fair Play were his creations. On board Apollo, Hubbard was known to be quite then task master and disciplinarian. Hubbard (particularly in later years) was no more tolerant of dissent than Miscavige is. You really should read a non-church approved bio of the guy some time.

Miscavige is simply doing what Hubbard would have done if Hubbard had been raised by the CoS.
 
You can call him what you want, but Misgavige was brought up by the church, it's the only life he's ever known. With no other outside influences to blame, he turned out to be quite the piece of work. With all those Clears around him, he still became a complete tyrant. As to how he came to power, again he was surrounded by Clears who had no chance against him and his thugs. Being a Clear doesn't seem to be much of an advantage in life.

As to Hubbard himself, Operation Snow White and Fair Play were his creations. On board Apollo, Hubbard was known to be quite then task master and disciplinarian. Hubbard (particularly in later years) was no more tolerant of dissent than Miscavige is. You really should read a non-church approved bio of the guy some time.

Miscavige is simply doing what Hubbard would have done if Hubbard had been raised by the CoS.


HCOB 16 April 1982, LRH says; “PTS is a connection to an SP. That is true. But what may be overlooked is that persons of the middle class (which is a culture, not an income bracket, to which belong all the puritan hypocritical mores of the cop and the get-a-job-be-a-moderate-plugging-success) frown very terribly on anything that at the least bit tries to make a better world. The middle class wants the world of a job and order and even hypocrisy and cops because they are AFRAID. They hold their narrow views because any other views may disturb their twenty-year house mortgage, the store, the job. So when someone decides to make a better world, they look on him as a direct menace even though the dull middle-class world is a sort of slavery and suicide. It is the middle class that tries the hardest to keep the down-and-outer out and down, who go along with a cop America and hate support of anything not in their class. And nearly every PTS you have will be found one way or another to be PTS to the middle class. As a group, not as individuals, the middle-class parent world suppress anything different. So you have PTSes.”

Staying clear means dealing with the insane middle class.

Getting back to Miscavige, why do you say "Miscavige is simply doing what Hubbard would have done if Hubbard had been raised by the CoS"? Firstly, studies show that even clones and identical twins aren't identical. Secondly, there is a huge difference between Miscavige and Hubbard. Thirdly, there is an enormous difference between 'Normal' people.

One of the first lessons I learned in Scientology was how different people are. For example, before Scientology, I used to categorize every women as having the same set of characteristics. That's why I failed with them before Scientology. In Scientology I quickly learned that they are all quite different.

Likewise, all Scientologists are different. For example: Miscavige is NOT Hubbard!
 
How old were you when you first started with Scientology?

Twenty six. I was a genius in some ways and massively ignorant in other ways.

I was handsome, young, strong, healthy, intelligent and very non-clear.

However, I had just come to the realization that my hidden mind/subconscious/reactive mind had too much of an effect on me. That realization, before I even heard about Scientology, was what put me on the path to clear. I was starting to correctly confront my problems even before Scientology. Scientology validated my recent independent 'discoveries'.
 
Twenty six. I was a genius in some ways and massively ignorant in other ways.

I was handsome, young, strong, healthy, intelligent and very non-clear.

However, I had just come to the realization that my hidden mind/subconscious/reactive mind had too much of an effect on me. That realization, before I even heard about Scientology, was what put me on the path to clear. I was starting to correctly confront my problems even before Scientology. Scientology validated my recent independent 'discoveries'.

 
Twenty six. I was a genius in some ways and massively ignorant in other ways.

I was handsome, young, strong, healthy, intelligent and very non-clear.

However, I had just come to the realization that my hidden mind/subconscious/reactive mind had too much of an effect on me. That realization, before I even heard about Scientology, was what put me on the path to clear. I was starting to correctly confront my problems even before Scientology. Scientology validated my recent independent 'discoveries'.
Pretty much what I thought. I'm glad Scientology worked for you. But for a lot of us at that age, it was just a by-product of growing up. I learned a lot about myself in my twenties, and now at 32, I'm a new father and better off than I've ever been. It took me most of my 20s to get there, but I didn't get married young or have children, so I was able to put off adulthood a bit longer.
 
Pretty much what I thought. I'm glad Scientology worked for you. But for a lot of us at that age, it was just a by-product of growing up. I learned a lot about myself in my twenties, and now at 32, I'm a new father and better off than I've ever been. It took me most of my 20s to get there, but I didn't get married young or have children, so I was able to put off adulthood a bit longer.

Three of my female auditors took me aside and told me: "Look, you're a handsome young, intelligent man with a good job. Any girl will like you". Dozens of dates before Scientology weren't honest like that. Usually they played hard to get and made me feel that I wasn't worthy of them.

The side advantage of Scientology was honest people that wanted you to do well and were willing to do and say things that would make you do and feel better. All of my dates prior to Scientology were like skeptics - "You aren't so great. What's good about you?"

After Scientology, I wouldn't give the skeptical and insulting woman more than ten seconds of my time.
 
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Three of my female auditors took me aside and told me: "Look, you're a handsome young, intelligent man with a good job. Any girl will like you". Dozens of dates before Scientology weren't honest like that. Usually they played hard to get and made me feel that I wasn't worthy of them.

The side advantage of Scientology was honest people that wanted you to do well and were willing to do and say things that would make you do and feel better. All of my dates prior to Scientology were like skeptics - "You aren't so great. What's good about you?"

After Scientology, I wouldn't give the skeptical and insulting woman more than ten seconds of my time.

Ha ha. This is a joke. I am laughing, because this is a joke.

Really, this must be a joke.

It must be. I can't believe anyone could seriously say this.

Congratulations, you have surprised me.
 
Ha ha. This is a joke. I am laughing, because this is a joke.

Really, this must be a joke.

It must be. I can't believe anyone could seriously say this.

Congratulations, you have surprised me.

And you don't believe women are skeptical when it comes to men?
You don't think that the average woman acts like a skeptic when considering the merits of a young man?
A skeptical woman is not the norm?

Don't get me wrong. Most women like me and I instantly like those that don't evaluate and invalidate. I like some other women, I just don't deliberately try to get to know them. Anyway, I'm happily married and intend to stay that way.
 
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Staying clear means dealing with the insane middle class.

Getting back to Miscavige, why do you say "Miscavige is simply doing what Hubbard would have done if Hubbard had been raised by the CoS"? Firstly, studies show that even clones and identical twins aren't identical. Secondly, there is a huge difference between Miscavige and Hubbard. Thirdly, there is an enormous difference between 'Normal' people.

One of the first lessons I learned in Scientology was how different people are. For example, before Scientology, I used to categorize every women as having the same set of characteristics. That's why I failed with them before Scientology. In Scientology I quickly learned that they are all quite different.

Likewise, all Scientologists are different. For example: Miscavige is NOT Hubbard!

No, Miscavige is not Hubbard. Hubbard had the advantage of being raised in a non-CoS environment. That means he had to learn to deal with people as people and develop actual interpersonal relationship skills. Hubbard could also be quite charming when he wanted to be. From what I have read, Miscavige has none of those skills and no charm at all. His M.O. doesn't get much beyond intimidation.

However, in dealing with dissent and dealing with critics, they are similar in nature. Operation Snow White was done with Hubbard's approval. Fair Play was Hubbard's directive. Disciplining Sea Org members by throwing them into the water with their hands tied (when done to POW's by the way, this is considered a war crime) was something he did.

The only difference between Hubbard and Miscavige on a policy level is one of degree. Miscavige carries Hubbard's policies to the extreme, but that's because he was never taught where the limits are. Where Hubbard had the mitigating influences of knowing what the real world considers reasonable and unreasonable, Miscavige was raised in an environment where anything that promotes the church is "ethical". Miscavige also had handed to him on a silver platter, a self selected group of followers who were used to going along with whatever the church leader said. Put them together and you have a power trip waiting to happen.
 
No, Miscavige is not Hubbard. Hubbard had the advantage of being raised in a non-CoS environment. That means he had to learn to deal with people as people and develop actual interpersonal relationship skills. Hubbard could also be quite charming when he wanted to be. From what I have read, Miscavige has none of those skills and no charm at all. His M.O. doesn't get much beyond intimidation.

However, in dealing with dissent and dealing with critics, they are similar in nature. Operation Snow White was done with Hubbard's approval. Fair Play was Hubbard's directive. Disciplining Sea Org members by throwing them into the water with their hands tied (when done to POW's by the way, this is considered a war crime) was something he did.

The only difference between Hubbard and Miscavige on a policy level is one of degree. Miscavige carries Hubbard's policies to the extreme, but that's because he was never taught where the limits are. Where Hubbard had the mitigating influences of knowing what the real world considers reasonable and unreasonable, Miscavige was raised in an environment where anything that promotes the church is "ethical". Miscavige also had handed to him on a silver platter, a self selected group of followers who were used to going along with whatever the church leader said. Put them together and you have a power trip waiting to happen.

Yours is a complete re-write of history. The following is typical of the stories I heard told by the thirty or so people I met that personally met L Ron Hubbard:

Hubbard played a very active role in the Dianetics boom, writing, lecturing and training auditors. Many of those who knew him spoke of being impressed by his personal charisma. Jack Horner, who became a Dianetics auditor in 1950, later said: "He was very impressive, dedicated and amusing. The man had tremendous charisma; you just wanted to hear every word he had to say and listen for any pearl of wisdom."[159] Isaac Asimov recalled in his autobiography how, at a dinner party, he, Robert Heinlein, L. Sprague de Camp and their wives "all sat as quietly as pussycats and listened to Hubbard. He told tales with perfect aplomb and in complete paragraphs."[67] As Atack comments, he was "a charismatic figure who compelled the devotion of those around him."[160] Christopher Evans described the personal qualities that Hubbard brought to Dianetics and Scientology:

He undoubtedly has charisma, a magnetic lure of an indefinable kind which makes him the centre of attraction in any kind of gathering. He is also a compulsive talker and pontificator ... His restless energy keeps him on the go throughout a long day — he is a poor sleeper and rises very early — and provides part of the drive which has allowed him to found and propagate a major international organization.[161]
 
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Staying clear means dealing with the insane middle class.

Getting back to Miscavige, why do you say "Miscavige is simply doing what Hubbard would have done if Hubbard had been raised by the CoS"? Firstly, studies show that even clones and identical twins aren't identical. Secondly, there is a huge difference between Miscavige and Hubbard. Thirdly, there is an enormous difference between 'Normal' people.

One of the first lessons I learned in Scientology was how different people are. For example, before Scientology, I used to categorize every women as having the same set of characteristics. That's why I failed with them before Scientology. In Scientology I quickly learned that they are all quite different.

Likewise, all Scientologists are different. For example: Miscavige is NOT Hubbard!

Three of my female auditors took me aside and told me: "Look, you're a handsome young, intelligent man with a good job. Any girl will like you". Dozens of dates before Scientology weren't honest like that. Usually they played hard to get and made me feel that I wasn't worthy of them.
The side advantage of Scientology was honest people that wanted you to do well and were willing to do and say things that would make you do and feel better. All of my dates prior to Scientology were like skeptics - "You aren't so great. What's good about you?"

After Scientology, I wouldn't give the skeptical and insulting woman more than ten seconds of my time.


So Scientology helped you score with the chicks.
 
Yours is a complete re-write of history. The following is typical of the stories I heard told of all that met L Ron Hubbard:

Nothing I wrote says anything about Hubbard not having charisma. As I said, he could be quite charming when he wanted to be. No one who starts his own religion can do so without having charisma.

That doesn't mean that he couldn't be paranoid (he died in a trailer while hiding out from "the government"), vengeful (Operation Snow White and Fair Play), or down right mean (the treatment of Sea Org personnel aboard his various ships of state). Being able to hold the attention of dinner guests does not mean you can't be a tyrant after everyone has left. When Hubbard was the ultimate authority, he let his inner demons run free.
 
Nothing I wrote says anything about Hubbard not having charisma. As I said, he could be quite charming when he wanted to be. No one who starts his own religion can do so without having charisma.

That doesn't mean that he couldn't be paranoid (he died in a trailer while hiding out from "the government"), vengeful (Operation Snow White and Fair Play), or down right mean (the treatment of Sea Org personnel aboard his various ships of state). Being able to hold the attention of dinner guests does not mean you can't be a tyrant after everyone has left. When Hubbard was the ultimate authority, he let his inner demons run free.

Again, you put a different spin on the story than by people who knew him. He was sick. His wife was put in jail.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:

McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence. The term has its origins in the period in the United States known as the Second Red Scare, lasting roughly from 1950 to 1954 and characterized by heightened fears of communist influence on American institutions and espionage by Soviet agents. Originally coined to criticize the anti-communist pursuits of Republican U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin, "McCarthyism" soon took on a broader meaning, describing the excesses of similar efforts. The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries.During the McCarthy era, thousands of Americans were accused of being Communists or communist sympathizers and became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private-industry panels, committees and agencies. The primary targets of such suspicions were government employees, those in the entertainment industry, educators and union activists. Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was often greatly exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment and/or destruction of their careers; some even suffered imprisonment. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts later overturned,[1] laws that would be declared unconstitutional,[2] dismissals for reasons later declared illegal[3] or actionable,[4] or extra-legal procedures that would come into general disrepute.

This was the era that we lived in. It's actually not too different now.
 
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Again, you put a different spin on the story than by people who knew him. He was sick. His wife was put in jail.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:



This was the era that we lived in. It's actually not too different now.

All of which has nothing to do with what we are talking about, as Hubbard died about 30 years after that. His wife was indicted on organizing an effort to spy on those looking into what the CoS was getting into. She did it on his behalf and with his permission. He is also the one who wrote the infamous Fair Play memo where he tells the faithful that silencing critics by any means necessary is perfectly fine. You really need to read a genuine (not church scrubbed) biography of LRH, otherwise you will be lost in this conversation.
 

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