Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[AdMan]

I've yet to see any scientific skepticism.

Then you understand little of science or skepticism.

 

[hgc]

I've heard rumors about higher levels. Maybe OT 8 is the top level. Or maybe it's just the highest one the public knows about.

I say let them start minting new OT9's and OT10's, and then I'll believe that these things exist. Of course I mean they would exist in the same sense that OT1-8 exist -- as a fun-filled high volume space alien exorcism ritual -- not as anything having to do with real life.

 

[marplots]

So what do you do if you go clear, and then get a cold one week later? Did it just not "stick"?

I suppose you could come to that conclusion. Or, it could be something that is not continuously "on."

I don't remember anything about clears being immortal...

Demonstrably so.

I would ask them if it had worked, and why. But I would try to keep in mind that anecdotes are not the same as evidence.

That is an interesting stance. If you hold it, it seems the only evidence you would accept would be your own personal experience with the program and methodology. I sense a spirit of inquiry in you.

Here is a link to a mission locator: http://www.locator.scientology.org/scn/
If there is nothing within reach, here is an online resource for some free courses: http://www.scientology.org/courses.html

 

[Chris L]

Then you could use colds as an indicator of whether you have reached the state of clear. Are we assuming that the state is permanent once obtained or a state one can move into and out of? I have never thought of it as a kind of permanent enlightenment where auditing is no longer of any use.

Ah, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy and some special pleading at no extra charge.

What would you say to those who have tried the product and judged it otherwise?

I'd say anecdotes are not evidence.

I would say it is more than self-improvement, at least in the way there is a student-teacher element and not entirely a self-guided improvement. I have read a few books on golf. I learned some tips. I even try to apply some of them. However, I still think a professional golf instructor would add great value. There's the "body of knowledge" and then there's the "body of knowledge as applied to me." It's the latter that makes a Harvard degree more worthwhile than reading material on the Internet. The interactive part, the guidance.

Except that no one has ever demonstrated any differences (besides money spent) between "good" auditing and "bad" auditing.

A good example would be Sunday school in the Christian faith. You would think, after a decade or two, everyone who regularly attended Sunday school would have graduated. But they don't. There's just too much to revisit in the Bible, too much to learn and lots of insight from lots of different teachers. Yet it's the same book.

What makes you think anyone here takes the bible any more seriously than LRH's work?

 

[devnull]

I think that any benefit that may be present in Dianetics is lost in the noise of nonsense.

 

[marplots]

I'd say anecdotes are not evidence.

Except that no one has ever demonstrated any differences (besides money spent) between "good" auditing and "bad" auditing.

This pair presents an almost insurmountable barrier to the discussion. Since anecdotes will not do, personal experience is required to get such a demonstration. One would have to undergo at least some of the process for him/herself and then find both a "good" and a "bad" auditing to compare.

At the end of such a process, what would you be left with? Personal conviction and an anecdote. It nicely illustrates why communication often breaks down on the subject. Unless you have two who share similar experiences, there is no basis for the discussion.

Parties that lack such experiences would tend to be lumped in one category and parties that had such experiences in another. We could broaden this so it applies to education in general: "How can I know a thing is worth learning or not until I learn it? And, not having learned it yet, on what basis can I judge it fair or foul?" Doubly so when I won't take someone else's story about it as meaningful.

What makes you think anyone here takes the bible any more seriously than LRH's work?

They could be on par, the point stands. It wasn't about any particular work, but about the value of a teacher.

 

[marplots]

I find it amazing that someone like Lron could con so many people out of so much money just by making up a bunch of nonsense.

Maybe he didn't.

That would make the amazement go away.

I am amused by the lack of cognitive dissonance between two themes I see a lot: "lousy science fiction writer" and "something that convinces so many people." Perhaps he was better at writing truth than fiction.

 

[devnull]

Since anecdotes will not do, personal experience is required to get such a demonstration. One would have to undergo at least some of the process for him/herself and then find both a "good" and a "bad" auditing to compare.

Or you just do what any sane person would do: look at the claims of SUPAPOWAS!!!!!, shake your head and walk away.

I dont need to try psychic surgery to know that it is nonsense, it is ridiculous on the face of it. Same for scientology, the ridiculous e-meter, the uninspiring "auditing" and the stupid OT levels. I dont need to try them to know its stupid.

Put it this way, if I tell you that if you send me $1000 Ill double your IQ using my superpowers, would you send me the $1000 just to try it? If not, why not?

 

[devnull]

Maybe he didn't.

That would make the amazement go away.

I am amused by the lack of cognitive dissonance between two themes I see a lot: "lousy science fiction writer" and "something that convinces so many people." Perhaps he was better at writing truth than fiction.

"Figures from the 2011 Census show that only 2,163 Australians call themselves Scientologists. That's a drop of 13.7 per cent over five years."

Who is convinced? You've bought into the spin the church produces.

 

[marplots]

Or you just do what any sane person would do: look at the claims of SUPAPOWAS!!!!!, shake your head and walk away.

I dont need to try psychic surgery to know that it is nonsense, it is ridiculous on the face of it. Same for scientology, the ridiculous e-meter, the uninspiring "auditing" and the stupid OT levels. I dont need to try them to know its stupid.

Are you then left with the corollary that anyone who practices Scientology is also stupid?

Put it this way, if I tell you that if you send me $1000 Ill double your IQ using my superpowers, would you send me the $1000 just to try it? If not, why not?

No, I wouldn't. Not without listening to what you have to say about it and evaluating it. I would like to hear what others who have tried your system have to say as well.

But then, I am not tossing out all anecdotes as worthless. That was a stance adopted by other posters. I believe the phrase was, "anecdotes are not evidence."

I believe Scientology is being mischaracterized as a set up where you hand over a certain amount of money and "magic happens." There is a great deal of time and work involved.

If it were just money in exchange for a switch being thrown, why would people stick with it so long? Why not just get your "degree" and move on?

 

[marplots]

"Figures from the 2011 Census show that only 2,163 Australians call themselves Scientologists. That's a drop of 13.7 per cent over five years."

Who is convinced? You've bought into the spin the church produces.

2,163 Australians, if your figures are correct.

I think bad press in the media, the Internet in general and the Freezone in particular have all taken their toll. It remains to be seen whether these will be fatal or just a temporary dip in numbers. On a related issue, we have been told that releasing certain documents held secret by Scientology would have a detrimental effect if made public. They have been made public and there has been a detrimental effect, a poisoning of the well.

To be honest, it isn't entirely about the numbers though. Each Scientologist determines on their own whether they will stay or leave. They have the freedom to choose. The falling numbers at least demonstrate one thing -- this isn't some evil brainwashing cult that turns people into mindless followers. Individuals choose to stay the course or leave. Those who find value stay. Those who don't, don't.

 

[devnull]

2,163 Australians, if your figures are correct.

As a point of reference, ~65000 claim to be Jedi knights........

 

[Alareth]

Wait ... Let me see if I'm understanding things correctly.

Scientology is undergoing a Protestant Reformation?

 

[marplots]

Wait ... Let me see if I'm understanding things correctly.

Scientology is undergoing a Protestant Reformation?

I hope so. Getting back to the original text is a good thing. Reading for oneself and delving into definitions should be encouraged. No special dispensations!

I can guess who Luther is, but who, I wonder, will be Calvin?

 

[marplots]

As a point of reference, ~65000 claim to be Jedi knights........

It's hard to imagine that on the census form...

 

[devnull]

It's hard to imagine that on the census form...

I guess it's a write-in?

Apparently someone is applying to the ABS to have "Jedi" officially recognised as a religion.

 

[devnull]

I am amused by the lack of cognitive dissonance between two themes I see a lot: "lousy science fiction writer" and "something that convinces so many people." Perhaps he was better at writing truth than fiction.

To be honest, it isn't entirely about the numbers though.

This gem didnt go unnoticed btw

 

[marplots]

I have absolutely got to try one of the free online courses. Just as soon as I find something I need to fix.

I think I might try the one on improving my public image. Would that work for here on the forum?

Public relations provides the means to communicate your ideas and get them accepted—a skill vitally necessary when dealing with new ideas. It is a way to gain support for your projects and endeavors.

With the declining numbers, this sounds a little ironic.

 

[Chris L]

This pair presents an almost insurmountable barrier to the discussion. Since anecdotes will not do, personal experience is required to get such a demonstration. One would have to undergo at least some of the process for him/herself and then find both a "good" and a "bad" auditing to compare.

Or you could do what is done with every other legit treatment and submit it to clinical trials run by trained mental health professionals. They'd use things like control groups and statistical analysis to determine if there is any real benefit to what the CoS is charging people thousands of dollars for. Just a thought.

 

[Justinian2]

Sounds like you need some auditing.

I would like to tell the felonious government of Florida what a scam the entire timeshare industry is. You pay $80,000 for a couple of timeshares that can't be sold. Try to sell and you pay another group of scam artists $1500 to sell and they wind up getting you a few hundred and conveying them to another felon that will do the necessary paperwork to take them for free - or just take your $1500 and run.

I would think that I was better than the other sheep/citizens of this country in that I want to improve things. Most people just go baaaaaah, like the sheep they are.