Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Freddy]

Digital penetration counts as intercourse in most states I think. Rape if it's forced.

I think it's called something different in many state codes, but is the same level of offense. For example, the Indiana Code provides that "rape" requires non-consensual intercourse, and defines intercourse as penetration of the female sex organ by the male sex organ. But any other non-consensual penetration of the vagina or anus with any object, or of the mouth with a sex organ, is called "criminal deviate conduct." Both rape and "criminal deviate conduct" are B-Felonies (A-Felonies under certain specified conditions, which are the same for both offenses), so the distinction, while it seems to be rather old-fashioned, does not affect the severity of the sentence.

Back on topic, I have to question the both the timing of this allegation and the motives of the prosecution in releasing this information at this time. It has nothing to do with the murder trial, and will have no effect on the murder trial other than to taint the jury pool, or perhaps coerce a guilty plea to avoid further embarrassment. It stinks of desperation. Needless to say, either of those reasons would constitute gross professional misconduct. The prosecutor also released this stuff while an emergency appeal of the trial judge's decision to allow its release was pending (and a ruling was expected within a day or two).

This is consistent with a pattern of behavior by Ms. Corey that makes her appear extremely vindictive, and even unstable. If the evidence is there, charge the crime. It would have to be tried separately, and would still potentially taint the jury pool for the murder trial. However, it would make the prosecution accountable. Releasing it as part of discovery in an unrelated murder trial strikes me as an attempt to smear the defendant without swearing out an affidavit of probable cause, which would mean taking responsibility for the strength or weakness of the allegation. Ms. Corey's antics, including threatening to sue Alan Dershowitz for criticizing her(!), are a major reason why I see this prosecution crashing and burning spectacularly. She's in way over her head, and the case is weak.

 

[bookworm]

Nope, I just think it's the ultimate irony that we've now reached the point where he was a child molester when he was 8 years old. I think it only appropriate that we take it up a notch to the only thing that might be worse that a child molester, a Nazi running a concentration camp.

Maybe this is why TM attacked him....maybe he was trying to molest him.

 

[Rare Truth]

Jeff Weiner:
Breaking: State formally files objection to #GeorgeZImmerman's motion to disqualify judge Lester.

Daralene Jones:
State slams #GeorgeZimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara for numerous media appearances, in its motion to objecting to request for new judge

Link to State's response to removal request:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/10033017...fied-Motion-to-Disqualify-Trial-Judge-7-17-12

 

[Rare Truth]

Jeff Weiner ‏@JeffWeinerOS State: "despite supposedly being biased against" ‪#GeorgeZimmerman‬, judge "has TWICE granted him bond." Emphasis not added.


31m Jeff Weiner ‏@JeffWeinerOS
Prosecutors: ‪#GeorgeZimmerman‬'s motion for new judge "long on conjecture and irrelevant and inaccurate bombast." ‪#TrayvonMartin‬

33m Jeff Weiner ‏@JeffWeinerOS
‪#GeorgeZimmerman‬ prosecutors: "If a party doesn't like a court's findings that doesn't mean they have the right to ask for a new judge"


</div>

 

[sgtbaker]

Is indicative? Or could be indicative?

People being exploring sexual actions and even urges at different ages, 8 is around the lower limit.

Learning what is not OK should occur as early as possible, but doesn't always...
Deciding to do it anyway is the problem... continuing it for years is abuse.

I specifically chose indicative, rather than proving because they are not synoymous. Indicative is a showing or suggestion.

After about the age of 4, non consentual sexual play is considered hypersexual. By that time, children generally have an understanding of my privates/ your privates. Mutual curiousity is not abnormal but in her statement, she made it a point to say "he was stronger than me," which suggests this was not consentual

 

[crimresearch]

I think it's called something different in many state codes, but is the same level of offense. For example, the Indiana Code provides that "rape" requires non-consensual vaginal intercourse, and defines intercourse as penetration of the female sex organ by the male sex organ. But any other non-consensual penetration of the vagina or anus with any object, or of the mouth with a sex organ, is called "criminal deviate conduct." Both rape and "criminal deviate conduct" are B-Felonies (A-Felonies under certain specified conditions, which are the same for both offenses), so the distinction, while it seems to be rather old-fashioned, does not affect the severity of the sentence.

Back on topic, I have to question the both the timing of this allegation and the motives of the prosecution in releasing this information at this time. It has nothing to do with the murder trial, and will have no effect on the murder trial other than to taint the jury pool, or perhaps coerce a guilty plea to avoid further embarrassment. It stinks of desperation. Needless to say, either of those reasons would constitute gross professional misconduct. The prosecutor also released this stuff while an emergency appeal of the trial judge's decision to allow its release was pending (and a ruling was expected within a day or two).

This is consistent with a pattern of behavior by Ms. Corey that makes her appear extremely vindictive, and even unstable. If the evidence is there, charge the crime. It would have to be tried separately, and would still potentially taint the jury pool for the murder trial. However, it would make the prosecution accountable. Releasing it as part of discovery in an unrelated murder trial strikes me as an attempt to smear the defendant without swearing out an affidavit of probable cause, which would mean taking responsibility for the strength or weakness of the allegation. Ms. Corey's antics, including threatening to sue Alan Dershowitz for criticizing her(!), are a major reason why I see this prosecution crashing and burning spectacularly. She's in way over her head, and the case is weak.

As always, correct and useful

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I don't want to be accused of being a hypocrite, as I have discussed issues that are more peripheral than central to the case....

But perhaps the general topic of molestation and at what ages children have sexual urges, etc. would be better served to be in its own thread ?

Just a thought.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Much as I think this guy's a liar and his act, reckless homicide, releasing this unrelated evidence really does seem grossly unjust. Was an 8 yr old just being a jerk to his cousin? Was he acting out sexually as some abused kids are known to do? 8 yr olds don't sexually abuse 6 yr olds unless there is some serious psychiatric disorder going on there and the adult GZ doesn't fit that profile as far as the other evidence suggests. This whole thing should have been kept completely separate from the shooting.

 

[Rare Truth]

lol. Just read this: "The State has issued a slap-down of epic proportions, all but screaming 'take this and shove it, bee-yatch'."

 

[Noztradamus]

~~~~

Back on topic, I have to question the both the timing of this allegation and the motives of the prosecution in releasing this information at this time. It has nothing to do with the murder trial, and will have no effect on the murder trial other than to taint the jury pool, or perhaps coerce a guilty plea to avoid further embarrassment. It stinks of desperation. Needless to say, either of those reasons would constitute gross professional misconduct. The prosecutor also released this stuff while an emergency appeal of the trial judge's decision to allow its release was pending (and a ruling was expected within a day or two).

This is consistent with a pattern of behavior by Ms. Corey that makes her appear extremely vindictive, and even unstable. If the evidence is there, charge the crime. It would have to be tried separately, and would still potentially taint the jury pool for the murder trial. However, it would make the prosecution accountable. Releasing it as part of discovery in an unrelated murder trial strikes me as an attempt to smear the defendant without swearing out an affidavit of probable cause, which would mean taking responsibility for the strength or weakness of the allegation. Ms. Corey's antics, including threatening to sue Alan Dershowitz for criticizing her(!), are a major reason why I see this prosecution crashing and burning spectacularly. She's in way over her head, and the case is weak.

Not in FLA.

The prosecution has to provide defense with all their discovery, good, bad, indifferent.

The defense is entitled to this information.

The legislature passed laws allowing media access to that discovery, and they fight, and most often win - its release.

Both the state and the defence applied for this particular evidence to be suppressed, the court rejected that.

O'Mara failed to get his appeal in by filing time, so legally the only thing Corey could do was comply with the original ruling.

 

[triforcharity]

You're simply wrong, johnny karate. I used a particular part of the ruling as evidence to show why I disagreed with the notion that Lester 'gave GZ every benefit of the doubt'. That's it.

He's still out on bond, right? Ok, just wanted to clarify, make sure we're still on the same page.

 

[GWCarver]

I don't want to be accused of being a hypocrite, as I have discussed issues that are more peripheral than central to the case....

But perhaps the general topic of molestation and at what ages children have sexual urges, etc. would be better served to be in its own thread ?

Just a thought.

I think you have a point. One thing I have learned over the years is those who have suffered abuse in the past tend to discount the idea that others may have engaged in the same conduct voluntarily. I think this is understandable.

 

[Freddy]

Both the state and the defence applied for this particular evidence to be suppressed, the court rejected that.

O'Mara failed to get his appeal in by filing time, so legally the only thing Corey could do was comply with the original ruling.

Discovery is limited to evidence of the charged offense(s). The prosecution was never under any obligation to turn over to the defense any information that is not evidence, potential evidence, or a lead that might turn up evidence of second degree murder. The molestation evidence should never have been included in the discovery materials in the first place. That was the prosecutor's decision. You don't get to say your hands were tied when you tied them yourself.

The excuse will be that the witness allegedly says that Zimmerman doesn't like black people, or doesn't like some black people. That's extremely thin, and the judge should have seen through it (the defense attorney should have helped him, though I don't know that he didn't point this out). I wouldn't be surprised if the prosecutors "encouraged" the witness to remember such statements in order to have an excuse for making the allegation public in this trial, rather than having to actually charge that crime. It would be consistent with the level of professionalism they have displayed thus far. I feel bad for the victim, as the prosecution already has what it wants. I doubt they ever charge it. When Zimmerman is acquitted of murder, any attempt to charge this will look like sour grapes. I doubt they even bother charging him. And there may also be statute of limitations issues.

 

[Rare Truth]

It looks like O'Mara was lying about the cousin shopping her story to People Magazine.

Frances Robles ‏@RoblesHerald People magazine tells me Zimmerman's cousin never approached them for money or a story. @GZlegalCase


O'Mama caught lying, again. ho hum

 

[crimresearch]

I don't want to be accused of being a hypocrite, as I have discussed issues that are more peripheral than central to the case....

But perhaps the general topic of molestation and at what ages children have sexual urges, etc. would be better served to be in its own thread ?

Just a thought.

Why? It's certainly part of the OP topic now.

 

[KatieG]

And I'm sure you'll cite this 'bizzare law', and clearly explain the legal failings behind it (and relevant Supreme Court rulings, and the US Constitution), just as you did when you made the same claims about 'Stand Your Ground', the right to self-defense, due process, etc.

Oh wait...

What the **** is your problem? If you don't like my posts, don't read them but get the hell off my ass.

I'm not a goddamn lawyer so I won't be citing any of those things and you damn well know it. I have opinions; don't like them, don't read them.

I think the Sunshine law is good and bad. Bad in this instance because nobody wanted this info released, but here it is.

 

[Rare Truth]

Discovery is limited to evidence of the charged offense(s). The prosecution was never under any obligation to turn over to the defense any information that is not evidence, potential evidence, or a lead that might turn up evidence of second degree murder. The molestation evidence should never have been included in the discovery materials in the first place. That was the prosecutor's decision. You don't get to say your hands were tied when you tied them yourself.

The excuse will be that the witness allegedly says that Zimmerman doesn't like black people, or doesn't like some black people. I wouldn't be surprised if the prosecutors "encouraged" the witness to remember such statements in order to have an excuse for making the allegation public in this trial, rather than having to actually charge that crime. It would be consistent with the level of professionalism they have displayed thus far. I feel bad for the victim, as the prosecution already has what it wants. I doubt they ever charge it. When Zimmerman is acquitted of murder, any attempt to charge this will look like sour grapes. I doubt they even bother charging him. And there may also be statute of limitations issues.

It appears you are wrong.

A lawyer explains it:

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] expy on Mon Jul 16, 2012 at 06:18:54 PM EST
[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]At least where I practice, the standard discovery orders have always included "all" statements of any witnesses that the prosecution may offer.

Florida seems to have very broad discovery in any case. They seem to be going by an "open file" discovery rule, which means that the prosecution is simply giving the defense everything it has that could possibly be deemed relevant. So by that rule... if they have the statement in their file, they are going to release it.



[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] But it would definitely be inappropriate to offer the witness at trial without having disclosed any and all recorded statements that exist of that witness. (By "recorded" I don't mean tape-recorded, I mean all for which any sort of record exists, whether on tape or by a written statement or written notes made of such a statement.) [/FONT]

I don't think we are qualified to say what may be used as potential evidence. It has been remarked it *could* be used in rebuttal if character witnesses are used, and could lend itself to display a pattern of manipulation and violence.

Furthermore, if, after interviewing the witness, the state chose to withhold that information, it seems they could be in a heap of trouble. They must release ALL> good, bad, indifferent.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It looks like O'Mara was lying about the cousin shopping her story to People Magazine.

Frances Robles ‏@RoblesHerald People magazine tells me Zimmerman's cousin never approached them for money or a story. @GZlegalCase


O'Mama caught lying, again. ho hum

Tweets are now the final arbiter of who is telling the truth and who isn't ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What the **** is your problem? If you don't like my posts, don't read them but get the hell off my ass.

I'm not a goddamn lawyer so I won't be citing any of those things and you damn well know it. I have opinions; don't like them, don't read them.

I think the Sunshine law is good and bad. Bad in this instance because nobody wanted this info released, but here it is.

Shouldn't you be taking your own advice ? If you don't want people to respond to your posts, don't post. You don't get to pick and choose who responds to your posts.

 

[Rare Truth]

Tweets are now the final arbiter of who is telling the truth and who isn't ?

She's the Miami Herald reporter who has been intensely reporting the case from the beginning. She contacted People Magazine, and they answered.

Are you thinking she is fabricating their response or something?