General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Dogzilla]

You mean like this? Or the footage used to assemble this documentary?

Still no Bulldozing Bodies of Belsen.

 

[A'isha]

Still no Bulldozing Bodies of Belsen.

That's nice. And...?

 

[Dogzilla]

This is one of the core incomprehensions in your understanding of the Holocaust, and as such a very large number of the mistakes you make (and they are certainly howlers) flow from this.

Firstly, most of the Jews of Europe in Nazi hands never even saw a concentration camp. More than 2 million were shot where they lived. More than 1.5 million were deported to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, which were not concentration camps but pure extermination sites. Hundreds of thousands died in ghettos, which interned exclusively Jews. Nearly 80% of the Holocaust, measuring by fatal casualties, did not involve "concentration camps".

The universal fate of these victims was to be ghettoised, killed, deported and killed again as Jewish communities. Shtetl after shtetl was wiped out in Eastern Europe for no other reason than these communities were Jewish. The pattern of slaughter spanned the Nazi-Soviet border, with more than half west of that dividing line, so excuses about 'partisans' and 'communists' simply do not fly. The Nazis slaughtered those communities because they were Jews. Period.

Secondly, the pattern of deportations to concentration camps quite clearly involved the mass deportation of entire communities and Jewish populations, overwhelmingly to Auschwitz. The Jews of Salonika had done absolutely eff all to the Nazis, yet in early 1943 they were deported en masse to Auschwitz, with only a small handful saved by the intervention of the Spanish consul and eventually let go to forestall diplomatic outcry from one of the few neutrals in wartime Europe.

Before and after the Jews of Salonika were deported en bloc, the Jews of Upper East Silesia were progressively deported to Auschwitz - an entire community in one region annexed by the Nazis from Poland, salami-sliced by mass deportations, carried out in the initial stages by ordering entire communities to a local sports stadium for a mass selection.

Significantly under 1.5 million Jews were deported to Nazi concentration camps in the narrow sense of the term. That's during the entire Third Reich. But that is out of the 9+ million total population of Jews in Europe during WWII. No other people was deported as fast or as frequently to KZs as the Jews were. Indeed, there were probably fewer non-Jews sent to KZs in this period than Jews were.

The reasons why are simple: non-Jews were arrested generally as individuals or in quite small groups. Jews were deported en bloc as Jews, either as whole communities or in the course of emptying France, Holland, Belgium, Germany, etc of their Jewish populations.

Sure, there were Jews who were arrested and sent to KZs for resistance, for homosexuality, for being supposedly 'habitual criminals'. 86,000 French men and women were sent to Nazi KZs in the war - separate to the 75,000 deported from Drancy and other holding camps as Jews. Some of the 86,000 were Jews, either unbeknownst to the Nazis or known to be Jewish, who were caught up in this or that action.

Thousands of Jews were deported as individuals in mixed Sammeltransporte. But more than a million were deported qua Jews in Sondertransporte to Auschwitz.

By all means, tell us what proportion of the 1.1 million Jews deported to Auschwitz were sent there for reasons other than being Jewish. The evidence is perfectly clear that the overwhelming majority were deported because they were Jews.

The Nazis scarcely deported any ethnic Hungarians after occupying Hungary, but organised the deportation of 437,000 Jews in a matter of a few months, with the connivance of the Hungarian state, all of whom were sluiced through Auschwitz. There is not the slightest justification for this which can be mentioned; no reason why the Nazis would have done this except to victimise a people who were the #1 ideological enemy of National Socialism.

I've mentioned 3 substantial groups within the 1.1 million deported to Auschwitz - the pattern is going to be the same for the other nationalities.

So go ahead - give us some numbers and some justifications which can explain why anyone should regard your inability to accept the blindingly obvious as something other than your ostrich-like denial of historical reality.

I think I can justify my belief that all not all Jews in the camps were there as Jews qua Jews waiting to be exterminated by repeating WHAT YOU JUST SAID! I have a firmer grasp of the distinction between deportation and extermination than you do. I also don't get tripped up by trying to explain that Jews might have been arrested for something besides merely being Jewish while explaining how Jews were always arrested because they were Jews. But I think this paragraph right here:

Firstly, most of the Jews of Europe in Nazi hands never even saw a concentration camp. More than 2 million were shot where they lived. More than 1.5 million were deported to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, which were not concentration camps but pure extermination sites. Hundreds of thousands died in ghettos, which interned exclusively Jews. Nearly 80% of the Holocaust, measuring by fatal casualties, did not involve "concentration camps".

is a pretty good summary of why the photographs of the horrific conditions in the Western camps were not pictures of Jews nor were they pictures of anything having to do with Jewish policy.

 

[Dogzilla]

That's nice. And...?

Still no Bulldozing Bodies of Belsen. Although to be fair, the British didn't snap any photos like the Madjanek Shoe Emporium or the Auschwitz Bags o' Hair.

 

[000063]

The evidence for gas chambers is not convincing. The evidence of a plan by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews is not convincing.

To you, and to you. Again, what you believe is not relevant, it's what you can prove.

The death toll of six million Jews was established before the war was over and at a time when the chaos in Europe would have made any meaningful estimate impossible.

Which is why, IIRC, there were several varying estimates, from various sources. One happened to be more or less right. Texas Sharpshooter.

I'm not saying Jews weren't persecuted or that Jews didn't suffer. But their suffering was not unprecedented nor unique.

Sadly, that is broadly correct. There have been comparable genocides. It's just that none were pursued with such ruthlessness and systemic lack of humanity, and I doubt in such large numbers.

 

[Robrob]

Gee whiz. If the Russians knew so much about cameras, why didn't they take any pictures of the heaps of corpses they found at Auschwitz like the British found at Belsen?

You mean like this? Or the footage used to assemble this documentary?

Wow, that must have been mighty embarrassing for Dogzilla! I'm sure he will be admitting his huge error any minute now...

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Gee whiz. If the Russians knew so much about cameras, why didn't they take any pictures of the heaps of corpses they found at Auschwitz like the British found at Belsen? Is that because maybe there weren't any?

This is becoming surreal. Antpogo posts a photo of heaps of corpses at Auschwitz and yet you are still are in denial.

Are you going to retract your silly claim about Russians not knowing how to use cameras? No? So you aren't really a revisionist are you? You are just a holocaust denier.

 

[Dcdrac]

Dogzilla once again you miss the main point, there is stacks of evidence vastly more credible than the fanatasy history you subscribe to, the REAL history has been shown to be true time and again the same documents, the same testimonies.

That you refuse to even contemplate your postion might be a web of utter fantasy based on thin air is staggering.

You have been presented with a mountain of HARD, REAL, evidence and yet cling to the wreckage of your denial delusion fantasies.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The evidence for gas chambers is not convincing. The evidence of a plan by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews is not convincing. The death toll of six million Jews was established before the war was over and at a time when the chaos in Europe would have made any meaningful estimate impossible. I'm not saying Jews weren't persecuted or that Jews didn't suffer. But their suffering was not unprecedented nor unique.

The dishonesty of this post is mind-boggling. I don't recall a single, clear, unambiguous instance of Dogzilla's acknowledging a Nazi extermination action against Jews - whether involving gas chambers or mobile killing operations, whether involving what he calls a plan or not, etc.

Anyone who has followed this thread and the previous thread is familiar with Dogzilla's attempts to convert the clear and unambiguous evidence for mass extermination of Jews in Lithuania - this evidence including but not limited to the Jaeger report - into routine anti-partisan operations, a rogue initiative, or population removal. These gambits failing, Dogzilla, rather than acknowledge the liquidation campaign in support of making Lithuania free of Jews, finally handwaved the matter away by declaring it irrelevant and of no interest to him.

As he apparently considers other extermination operations, based on his steadfast dodge of discussing such examples as the waves of murder in Riga, also beside the point and not interesting.

Further, Dogzilla repeats that he isn't convinced by the evidence for gas chambers, a feature of the genocide which seems to form an obsession for him, as they block his thinking and awareness of the more than 2 million Jewish murder victims not gassed to death. But Dogzilla has yet to address in a - shall we say - remotely convincing manner the copious evidence for the gas chamber murders, much discussed in these threads, in the gas van thread, and in this paper http://archive.org/details/BelzecSobiborTreblinka.HolocaustDenialAndOperationReinhard.ACritique, by Nick Terry and his colleagues.

Dogzilla now creates a wartime canonical 6 million figure, which he introduces in the passive voice so as to make it sound like an agreed and formalized tally but without his having to 1) ascribe it to anyone and place what he is thinking of in context and 2) acknowledge other evolving estimates, both during and after the war. Nearly every post Dogzilla makes is similarly evasive - awash in rhetorical sidestepping or blatantly dodging specific questions and issues.

Dogzilla's generalized and formulaic statement that Jews were persecuted, without his giving specifics, let alone addressing the Third Reich's anti-Jewish policy and the evidence for the kinds of persecution actions the Nazis undertook, cannot undo the pattern of pure negationism and denial he has treated us to these many months.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I googled Auschwitz liberation photos and got a bunch of pictures of some chubby kids standing behind barbed wire and some other photos of a pile of eyeglasses, a pile of household items, a pile of toothbrushes, etc. Nothing like the Bulldozing Bodies of Belsen.

My Google must be broken, because, whilst I didn't turn up ANTPogo's image, in less than a minute I found this http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/89872_61296.html. Or perhaps one of us was looking for Soviet-taken images of corpses at Auschwitz and one of us wasn't.

 

[LemmyCaution]

This

But I think this paragraph right here:

Firstly, most of the Jews of Europe in Nazi hands never even saw a concentration camp. More than 2 million were shot where they lived. More than 1.5 million were deported to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, which were not concentration camps but pure extermination sites. Hundreds of thousands died in ghettos, which interned exclusively Jews. Nearly 80% of the Holocaust, measuring by fatal casualties, did not involve "concentration camps".

is a pretty good summary of why the photographs of the horrific conditions in the Western camps were not pictures of Jews nor were they pictures of anything having to do with Jewish policy.

is also remarkable. Here Dogzilla 1) mangles Nick's argument in 2) an effort to use the extermination actions involving open-air murders of Jews, ghetto conditions resulting in the deaths of Jews, the gas murders of Jews at Chelmno and in the AR camps to make the case . . . seriously . . . that there is not evidence of mass extermination of Jews, citing in this instance the special case of Belsen.

 

[Belz...]

The evidence for gas chambers is not convincing. The evidence of a plan by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews is not convincing. The death toll of six million Jews was established before the war was over and at a time when the chaos in Europe would have made any meaningful estimate impossible. I'm not saying Jews weren't persecuted or that Jews didn't suffer. But their suffering was not unprecedented nor unique.

Ah, I get it. You're saying "holocaust" doesn't mean what we think it means.

 

[Multivac]

Still no Bulldozing Bodies of Belsen. Although to be fair, the British didn't snap any photos like the Madjanek Shoe Emporium or the Auschwitz Bags o' Hair.

How about this?

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/89872_56330.html

Or this?

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/89872_54296.html

Or this?

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/89872_60645.html

Or this?

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/89872_61296.html

Or this?

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/89872_59193.html

 

[Nick Terry]

I think I can justify my belief that all not all Jews in the camps were there as Jews qua Jews waiting to be exterminated by repeating WHAT YOU JUST SAID!

No, you can't. Your statement that 'not all Jews in the camps were there as Jews qua Jews' is completely meaningless unless it is quantified.

I have a firmer grasp of the distinction between deportation and extermination than you do.

No you don't. In recent months we've seen you deeply confused about the contours of the Final Solution and repeatedly ignore the numbers.

10s of 1000s of Jews were deported to Theresienstadt; from there 46,000 were deported onwards to Auschwitz. Overall, 1.1 million Jews were deported to Auschwitz. Those are the kind of facts that you mangle and misrepresent time and again, just as you misrepresent what happened to the 1.1 million Jews deported to Auschwitz and why it was that the Nazis carried out selections on arrival.

The bigger problem you have, as we've established repeatedly, is your inability to see how extermination fits in with genocide. Jews deported to Theresienstadt who were not transported onwards to Auschwitz weren't "exterminated" as you see it, but they died like flies and were meant to disappear entirely. They still died in a genocide; they still died in the Holocaust.

The catch is, the only reason they were sent to Theresienstadt was because they were Jewish.

So please, show us the evidence that there were more Jews sent directly to concentration camps for reasons other than being Jewish, than there were Jews sent to Theresienstadt.

I also don't get tripped up by trying to explain that Jews might have been arrested for something besides merely being Jewish while explaining how Jews were always arrested because they were Jews.

Sorry, I didn't trip up. You just have, though, by failing to understand the distinction between Sammeltransporte and Sondertransporte.

You've also misrepresented my point, which was that the overwhelming majority of Jews sent to KZs were deported to them because they were Jews. Not 100%. The fact that 0.5% or even 1% were sent to KZs for other reasons doesn't then excuse or exculpate the Nazis.

The Nazis sent 100s of 1000s of non-Jews to KZs for often entirely spurious reasons. The KZs are one of the main reasons that everyone other than a tiny minority of loons has since 1945 thought that the Nazis were *****.

But I think this paragraph right here:

is a pretty good summary of why the photographs of the horrific conditions in the Western camps were not pictures of Jews nor were they pictures of anything having to do with Jewish policy.

Your continual ability to mangle and misrepresent is quite astounding. This paragraph

Firstly, most of the Jews of Europe in Nazi hands never even saw a concentration camp. More than 2 million were shot where they lived. More than 1.5 million were deported to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, which were not concentration camps but pure extermination sites. Hundreds of thousands died in ghettos, which interned exclusively Jews. Nearly 80% of the Holocaust, measuring by fatal casualties, did not involve "concentration camps".

doesn't say anything which would be germane to the issue of what was uncovered in 1945 on liberating the camps. It replied to your latest piece of plate-spinning, your refusal to "accept" that the Nazis persecuted Jews qua Jews.

I know you're dying to blurt out denier cliches about Jews being subversives, communists and partisans and how that justifies the Nazi treatment of the Jews, so why don't you save everyone some time and give it your best shot. We could all do with another laugh.

 

[Nick Terry]

The evidence for gas chambers is not convincing. The evidence of a plan by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews is not convincing. The death toll of six million Jews was established before the war was over and at a time when the chaos in Europe would have made any meaningful estimate impossible. I'm not saying Jews weren't persecuted or that Jews didn't suffer. But their suffering was not unprecedented nor unique.

Nobody cares whether you are not convinced. Your task is to convince others and you fail miserably at that. Protip: actually learning about the evidence for gas chambers, plans and the death toll of Jews in WWII would be a sine qua non if you're trying to formulate an argument against any of those things.

 

[Dogzilla]

This is becoming surreal. Antpogo posts a photo of heaps of corpses at Auschwitz and yet you are still are in denial.

Are you going to retract your silly claim about Russians not knowing how to use cameras? No? So you aren't really a revisionist are you? You are just a holocaust denier.

Yes. I'm sorry I said the Russians don't know how to use cameras. They did know how to use cameras and they were as capable of taking pictures as the British and the Americans were. Maybe they were not as adept at staging photos as the Americans were. Clearly, the Russians were hobbled by having liberated the death camps where the Jews were murdered en masse. The Russians didn't find hundreds of starving prisoners who could crawl onto the bunk beds for a photo op nor did they find the corpses of emaciated typhus victims scattered around the camp that they could put into a pile and push into a hole in the ground. They did the best they could with their hair brushes and prosthetic devices. But the hollow cheeks and eyes caused by starvation and the blotches caused by typhus gave the dead bodies in the ordinary concentration camps an appearance of death that ordinary citizens back home in Britain and especially America had never seen before. It was better than anything Psy Warfare had hoped to find!

So it wasn't Russian backwardness that made it impossible for them to take a picture comparable to the Bulldozing Bodies of Belsen. It's just that the Industrialized Murder Factories didn't look as bad. But still, you would think that a place like Treblinka, where murder occurred on such an unimaginable scale, would have presented an opportunity for a photograph of something incriminating.

 

[Dcdrac]

Dogzilla you are talking rubbish again at this site you will find a picture of a mass grave at Treblinka

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/treblinka.html

Now show us some REAL history and not your denial delusionist fantasy

 

[000063]

Yes. I'm sorry I said the Russians don't know how to use cameras.

Wait for it.

They did know how to use cameras and they were as capable of taking pictures as the British and the Americans were.

Wait for it.

Maybe they were not as adept at staging photos as the Americans were.

And there go the goalposts.

Clearly,

Read "I'm going to start making stuff up now".

the Russians were hobbled by having liberated the death camps where the Jews were murdered en masse. The Russians didn't find hundreds of starving prisoners who could crawl onto the bunk beds for a photo op nor did they find the corpses of emaciated typhus victims scattered around the camp that they could put into a pile and push into a hole in the ground. They did the best they could with their hair brushes and prosthetic devices. But the hollow cheeks and eyes caused by starvation and the blotches caused by typhus gave the dead bodies in the ordinary concentration camps an appearance of death that ordinary citizens back home in Britain and especially America had never seen before. It was better than anything Psy Warfare had hoped to find!

No proof, I note.

So it wasn't Russian backwardness that made it impossible for them to take a picture comparable to the Bulldozing Bodies of Belsen. It's just that the Industrialized Murder Factories didn't look as bad. But still, you would think that a place like Treblinka, where murder occurred on such an unimaginable scale, would have presented an opportunity for a photograph of something incriminating.

Incredulity.

 

[Dogzilla]

The dishonesty of this post is mind-boggling. I don't recall a single, clear, unambiguous instance of Dogzilla's acknowledging a Nazi extermination action against Jews - whether involving gas chambers or mobile killing operations, whether involving what he calls a plan or not, etc.

Anyone who has followed this thread and the previous thread is familiar with Dogzilla's attempts to convert the clear and unambiguous evidence for mass extermination of Jews in Lithuania - this evidence including but not limited to the Jaeger report - into routine anti-partisan operations, a rogue initiative, or population removal. These gambits failing, Dogzilla, rather than acknowledge the liquidation campaign in support of making Lithuania free of Jews, finally handwaved the matter away by declaring it irrelevant and of no interest to him.

As he apparently considers other extermination operations, based on his steadfast dodge of discussing such examples as the waves of murder in Riga, also beside the point and not interesting.

Further, Dogzilla repeats that he isn't convinced by the evidence for gas chambers, a feature of the genocide which seems to form an obsession for him, as they block his thinking and awareness of the more than 2 million Jewish murder victims not gassed to death. But Dogzilla has yet to address in a - shall we say - remotely convincing manner the copious evidence for the gas chamber murders, much discussed in these threads, in the gas van thread, and in this paper http://archive.org/details/BelzecSobiborTreblinka.HolocaustDenialAndOperationReinhard.ACritique, by Nick Terry and his colleagues.

Dogzilla now creates a wartime canonical 6 million figure, which he introduces in the passive voice so as to make it sound like an agreed and formalized tally but without his having to 1) ascribe it to anyone and place what he is thinking of in context and 2) acknowledge other evolving estimates, both during and after the war. Nearly every post Dogzilla makes is similarly evasive - awash in rhetorical sidestepping or blatantly dodging specific questions and issues.

Dogzilla's generalized and formulaic statement that Jews were persecuted, without his giving specifics, let alone addressing the Third Reich's anti-Jewish policy and the evidence for the kinds of persecution actions the Nazis undertook, cannot undo the pattern of pure negationism and denial he has treated us to these many months.

And again, you know you're speaking the truth when your opponent finds it necessary to so comprehensively misunderstand what you say. I remember a time when you could misinterpret a possibly ambiguous choice of words and fly off on some tangent that was unrelated to what I said. And you've been trying to steer every conversation to the Eisatzgruppen for as long as I can remember. It's obvious that your inability to counter the weaknesses of the holocaust narrative brought to light by the revisionists has always necessitated the need to erect strawmen. But the strawmen you used to erect at least resembled the genuine scarecrow in a corn field you were trying to slay. Lately, your strawmen are now more like the Cowardly Lion in a Piggly Wiggly.

 

[Dcdrac]

Franz Suchomel recalled what happened in the northern part of Treblinka camp:

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/treblinka/camprestructure.html

“Wirth had excavators digging long, deep pits. The excavated earth was used as a rampart to obstruct the view of these pits. At the bottom of the pit he stacked the thousands of corpses which were lying around the camp, covered them with chloride of lime, and closed the pits.”



The earth rampart – camouflaged with turf – served to hide the gas chambers from view and now the camp was divided in two, from this point the larger part of the camp, which comprised of the work camp, the living quarters for the Jews and the German and Ukrainian personnel was referred to as Camp 1 or the Lower Camp, while the extermination area became known as Camp 2 or the Upper Camp.



Before the new gassing facilities were completed, the deportations were resumed. Wirth had re-organised the camp and modelled along the lines of Belzec and with things in place, the camp was ready to receive transports, they resumed on the 3 September 1942, with a transport from the Warsaw ghetto, on the ramp at Treblinka waiting to greet them were Christian Wirth, Franz Stangl amongst the SS and Ukrainian camp staff.