General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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No, just pointing out that one of the big name holocaust survivor witnesses wasn't actually a "victim of the holocaust."

Wrong. Primo Levi was deported to Auschwitz as a Jew, and his transport was subjected to a selection on arrival as happened with other Jewish transports. He was selected for forced labour and barely survived illnesses brought about by that forced labour; he also survived selections inside the camp (which were targeted only at Jews) which would have sent him to the gas chambers. He was gravely ill when Monowitz was evacuated, and chose to avoid being sent on death marches and was then liberated. He was very much a victim of the Holocaust.

Or is Primo Levi just another Wiesel? A nobody that scholars don't use (as if scholars had any bearing on public knowledge of the holocaust anyway)?

LOL, by god you are ignorant. Primo Levi is regarded as one of the greatest writers of the 20th Century not just for his Auschwitz memoirs but also for his science writing. It's fair to say that in Europe, he is probably the best known memoirist of the Holocaust and extremely widely read.

Because he reflected on not just his own experiences but the Holocaust as a whole, most notably in The Drowned and the Saved, several phrases coined by Levi have become a firm part of scholarly comprehension of the Holocaust, most notably the idea of 'the grey zone'. That phrase was also used as the title of a stage play which was turned into one of those Hollywood films you like to rant about, so I think we can say it has informed public knowledge of the Holocaust - although its subtlety has clearly eluded every single boneheaded Holocaust denier on the internet.
 
I strongly reccommend the Periodic Table by Primo Levi

Once again Dogzilla demonstrates his ignornace and knowedge of nothing
 
Really? Eyewitness testimony is just words? My uncle was part of the 11th Armoured Division that liberated Belsen, and eventually when he told me about what they found.... Was it impossible that they were overwhelmed by thousands of starved creatures on the brink of death he was mistaken? The piles of bodies they buried. Were they not real, because a camp of thousands of walking skeletons can't be real, can it? And the pictures they took, not evidence at all? I suppose as a holocaust denier you will say something like it was a care centre for severe anorexics, and they starved themselves.

Dogzilla cannot accept that the Jews caught up in Belsen, or Theresienstadt, or the Warsaw ghetto, were persecuted because they were Jewish, because the Nazis hated Jews, and ended up in life-threatening situations because they were Jews. He does not understand the absolute central core of the Holocaust, which is racial persecution.

There are no good reasons why the Jews were persecuted, because the reasons the Nazis gave themselves were based on fantasies. It's as if they decided that Belgians were the epitome of all evil, and proceeded to annihilate most of the Belgian population. The population numbers are comparable - there were nearly 9 million Belgians on the outbreak of war, and the country suffered 88,000 fatalities in WWII. Oops 24,000 of those were Jews so the numbers would be even lower.
 
No Dogzilla you said something about figments in Poland. Figments aren't real.

Give it up DZ you are just a time waster. You know nothing about the Holocaust, nothing about the Lagers and nothing about the Periodic Table.
 
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I noticed he confused racial persecution with religious persecution too. With his "co -religionist," quip. He needs to read the Wannsee Protokol again I guess.

Instead of conjuring figments from fragments.
 
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So far, I've learned that Dogzilla thinks the Holocaust was real, it's just that the Jews who were persecuted and murdered in the Holocaust weren't real.
 
That too. What patent self contradictory statements will he delight us with next? They weren't there? Anything revisionism doesn't like is a figment?

What a garden of weeds he tills.
 
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So where are the MSM's criticisms of the fabrications weaved into the public's sensibilities? Why hasn't an investigation of the contention that Elie's tattoo doesn't exist been on 60 Minutes or Nightline or Geraldo?

There is really nothing that can be said to someone who believes that historical events are understood and clarified on Nightline and Geraldo.
 
Then scratch your head and say where was the outcry from the friends and relatives of the PEOPLE who are said to have gone missing?

Over a period of three years did the millions of friends and relatives not notice that their friends and relatives had disappeared?

Over that same period of three years no good people spoke up and leaked to the world that this was happening? Nor in the decade after and the decade after that?

EARLY NEWS OF GENOCIDE, POLAND, SELECTED SOURCES

Date: 30-Aug-41
Originator: Delegatura
Recipient: govt mid-Oct
Published: JTA Bulletin 29 Oct; Dziennik Polski 31 Oct
Topic: 6000 Jews executed in Cyzew near Lomza on 27 Aug

Date: 1-Oct-41
Originator: Henryk Grabowski
Recipient: Jewish underground
Published: Neged Hazerem, Oct 41
Topic: Polish scout sent to Vilna, report on Hashomer Hatzair information on Vilna (Vilna Jewish pop dropped from 70k to 35k, "mass killing"; terror), eyewitness account of extermination action at Troki

Date: 1-Oct-41
Originator: Aryah Wilner, Hashomer Hatzair
Recipient: David Fligelman, OS interviewer
Topic: reports from Vilna on actions in Vilna; Jewish population decreased from 70k to 25k

Date: fall-41
Originator: young woman from Vilna
Recipient: Rabbi Huberman, OS interviewer
Topic: massacres at Ponar (Vilna)

Date: mid-Nov 41
Originator: Gen Rowecki
Recipient: "London"
Published: no, General Staff only
Topic: eastern Polish action: 3000 shot in Wilno, also Bialystok, Bereza

Date: 1-Dec-41
Originator: members Vilna youth groups
Recipient: OS
Topic: “outright extermination of the Jews”; news disbelieved in Warsaw

Date: mid-Jan 42
Originator: Minister Stanislaw Mikolajczyk
Recipient: Schwarzbart
Published: no, Delegatura report
Topic: from Sept: Bialystok, "resettlement" as cover for shootings; "In Lithuania almost all Jews have been already murdered . . .” - 40k of 70k remain in Wilno (Vilna) for example, Ponar mentioned - (mass grave 1 km long) also Pinsk, Brzesc, Homsk, Motol, Kobryn, Wlodzimierz

Date: late Jan-42
Originator: Szlama Winer
Recipient: Hersh & Bluma Wasser, OS interviewers
Topic: report on Chelmno from escapee, gas vans, very detailed (AK reports from Warthegau converge with this, also related - rabbi of Grabow, Jacob Shulman, visit from escapee Winer using false name)

Date: Mar 42?
Originator: Mina Astman, Malka Talenfeld
Topic: escape from Belzec, return to Zolkiew

Date: 1-Mar-42
Originator: Schwarzbart
Topic: confirmation 30k killed Wilno

Date: 31-Mar-42
Originator: Minister Mikolajczyk
Recipient: Delegatura
Topic: request to confirm that SS and Ukrainian had massacred Jews in Lwow, Stanislawow, Kuty (reply reached London 19 Jun 42)

Date: Apr?
Originator: Rabbi David Kahana, Lwow
Published: no, diary
Topic: Lwow deportations discovered to have gone to Belzec, confirmed by RR workers, no escapes, no knowledge about camp innards

Date: 1-Apr-42
Originator: Szlama Winer's nephew
Recipient: Hersh Wasser
Published: no, postcard taken from Zamosc, news of Belzec

Date: 1-Apr-42
Originator: Armia Krajowa
Published: internal
Topic: report Belzec opened 17 Mar 42, Jews on transports from direction of Lwow and Warsaw, over 75k transported by 13 Apr, no Jews leave camp, no food, lime brought to camp, train cars with clothing, small camp, Jews searching for witnesses - guesses at means (villagers say electricity, gas, pumping out air) - Germans use term Totenlager, Wirth as commander

Date: Apr-42
Published: Only Belzec was first mentioned in the ARRIL42 edition of the Biuletyn Informacyjni Sobibor was not mentioned in 1942 or 1943 at all. [Matthew Ellard]
Date: Apr-42
Recipient: Oyneg Shabes
Published: Miteylungen
Topic: “The Jewish Population in the Face of Physical Extermination: a report from Lublin, where thousands of Jews had been deported to an unknown destination,” noting Belzec and gassing deaths; also citing deportations from Izbica, Lwow, Okuniew, Wawer, Wawolnica, Mielec

Date: 16-Apr-42
Originator: Dr Zygmunt Klukowski, Szczebrzeszyn, Zamosc county
Published: no, diary entry
Topic: "we know that every day there is a train arriving at Belzec from Lublin and one from Lwow, each with twenty cars. The Jews must get off, are taken behind a barbed-wire fence and murdered by an electric current or poisoned with gas and then the corpses are burned" Apr sometime Nowe Tory (underground Bund newspaper) Lublin deportees taken to "the famous camp of Belzec, where hundreds of young Jews were murdered in an inhuman way. . . . Among the population rumors are spread that in this camp extermination is being carried out like in Chelmno, by poisoning with gas" - Jews of Izbica "no doubt that they are deported to Belzec, where they are murdered with poisonous gas" (Arad, BST)

Date: 1-May-42
Recipient: Schwarzbart
Topic: repeat that most Lithuanian Jews killed

Date: 5-May-42
Published: Dziennik Polski
Topic: most Jews in eastern borderlands town "disappeared"

Date: 29-May-42
Originator: Delegatura
Recipient: Schwarzbart
Topic: report 4/42 "in the conquered East the process of extermination of the Jews is being completed"; 8000 survive in Wilno, Ukraine no Jews left

Date: ?
Originator: Gen Rowecki
Topic: accurate dispatches on eastern massacres and Chelmno

Date: 11-May-42
Originator: Bund
Recipient: London late May
Published: BBC broadcast 2 Jun 42
Topic: carried by Polish underground; actions described as total extermination; est 700k dead, reference to Hitler's prophecy

Date: early Jun 42
Originator: letter from Wlodowa
Recipient: OS
Topic: Jews of Wlodowa gassed at Sobibor in May 42, Radyzner Rebbe Shlomo Velvel Lajner mentioned as victim

Date: early Jun 42
Originators: Frumka Plotnicka, Chava Folman, OS couriers
Topic: corroborated the story about Sobibor for the Oyneg Shabes - Sobibor like Belzec

Date: 6-Jun-42
Originator: Polish cabinet
Recipient: Allied govts
Topic: Sikorski speech/broadcast protest against German crimes in Poland including "extermination of the Jewish population . . . reaching an unbelievable scale"

Date: early Jun-42
Originator: letter
Recipient: smuggled into Warsaw
Published: diary
Topic: gassing of Jews from Wlodowa at Sobibor and warning of a similar fate in store for Warsaw’s Jews. The letter described the death of Rebbe Shlomo Velvel Lajner and advised Warsaw inmates that the “best remedy” was to go into hiding

Date: early Jun-42
Originator: Emanuel Ringelblum
Recipient:
Published: diary
Topic: “extermination operation at Belzec”; not a single escape had occurred from the camp there

Date: 17-Jun-42
Originator: Emanuel Ringelblum
Recipient:
Published: diary
Topic: fate of deportees in General-Gouvernement was “transfer to the other world” through consignment “to Sobibor near Chelm” “where Jews are choked to death with gas.”

Date: sometime in Jun 42
Originator: Wasser, Gutkowski, Ringelblum
Published: OS report
Topic: "The Gehanna of Polish Jewry" - Ponar killings carried out by Lithuanian partisans, account of Slonim massacre of Oct 41, also Lublin, Lwow, 600k Polish Jews dead, 1942 Lublin and Lwow deportations

Date: 24-Jun-42
Originator: Bund report
Published: Dziennik Polski
Topic: "Terror in Poland: Mass Shooting of Jews"

Date: 24-Jun-42 BBC guidelines (broadcasts followed)
Topic: staff to give prominence to extermination of Jews

Date: 25-Jun-42
Originator: Bund report
Recipient: Zygielbojm
Published: Daily Telegraph article written by Zygielbojm and based on Bund's information, many references in following days

Date: 26-Jun-42
Source: Bund, Oyneg Shabes
Published: BBC broadcast
Topic: mention Ponar, Slonim, Lemberg (Lwow), Chelmno, 700k mentioned again

Date: ?
Published: British Section WJC
Topic: Schwartzbart announces 1 million Jews killed by Nazis

Date: 5-Jul-42
Originator: girl from Deblin-Irena (had escaped deportation)
Recipient: Abraham Lewin
Published: no, diary
Topic: rumor of Sobibor as murder place

Date: 7-Jul-42
Originator: Minister Mikolajcczyk
Recipient: National Council
Topic: confirmation of above: Lublin, Isbica Kujawksa, Rawa Ruska, Bilgoraj, Wawolnica, Mielic, Lwow, Wilno, Tarnopol, Radom, Stryj, Przemsyl; "apparently, in Belzec and Trawniki, [the Germans] murder [Jews] with poison gas"; more than 200k dead

Date: 11-Jul-42
Published: Dziennik Polski
Topic: “The Slaughter of the Jews
The situation of the Jews presents itself even worse. The matter of the Warsaw ghetto is well known. Hunger, death and diseases continually and systematically threaten the Jewish population. In the area of Lublin on the night of 23-24 March [1942] the Jewish population was deported. The sick and disabled were killed on the spot. All children aged 2-3 years from the orphanage, who numbered 108, were sent away from the city along with their nurses and murdered. Altogether 2,500 people were murdered that night, while the remaining 26,000 were sent to camps in Bełżec and Tremblinka [wywieziono do obozów w Bełżcu i Tremblince]. From Izbica Kujawska 8,000 people were deported in an unknown direction. Reportedly in Bełźec and Tremblinka the killing is going on with the help of poisonous gas [za pomoca gazów trujacych]. Mass murders in Rawa Ruska and Bilgoraj where the Jewish communities ceased to exist. On March 22nd the SS shot dead 120 people in the marketplace of Wąwolnica near Kazimierz. An unknown number was moved out of the city and murdered. On March 30th 350 people were deported and killed on their way to Nałęczów. The rest was put inside wagons that were sealed and sent away. In Mielec a total of 1,300 people were killed on March 9. 2,000 Jews were killed in Mir; 2,500 in Nowogródek; 1,800 in Wołożyn; 4,000 in Kojdanów. From Hamburg 30,000 Jews were brought to Minsk; all of them were shot. In Lwów the count is of 30,000, in Vilna of 60,000, in Stanisławów around 15,000, in Tarnopol of 5,000, in Złoczów 2,000, in Brzeżany of 4,000 murdered Jews. Murders of Jews are also from Tarnów, Radom, Zborów, Kołomyja, Sambor, Stryj, Drohobycz, Zbaraż, Brody, Przemyśl, Kolo and Dąbie.
Under the constraint to dig their own graves – shootings with machine guns [kolumłotami] and killings with grenades – even poisoning with gas [zatruwanie gazem] are the daily methods of destroying the Jewish people, while it is understood that even as in Lwów the Jewish communities themselves had to draw up the list of criminals.”

Date: 9-Jul-42
Originator: National Council
Published: press conference
Topic: Dep PM Mikolajcyzk 200k dead (eschewing Bund's 700k); both Polish National Council and London skeptical of numbers; also Schwarzbart but Zygielbojm early believer of reports

Date: Jul-42
Originator: unnamed refugee
Recipient: Chaim Kaplan
Published: diary
Topic: Sobibor - Jews from the Reich and Protectorate, from Polish villages, and from Lublin had been taken to Sobibor; camp’s underground economy, rations, purpose, sorting of goods by work detail, and location: “The great camp, which stands amid dense forests and swamps, is completely surrounded by barbed wire and is heavily guarded;” “the young and healthy ones . . . are taken for work” at “various crafts” in the camp—and that these prisoners inevitably succumb and die “but slowly. . . . The fate of the other segment is even more tragic—they are condemned to die at once.” This latter segment included, said Kaplan, the elderly, women, children, and people who were weak. The means of death, Kaplan said, was “wholesale . . . by poisoning with lethal gas or by electrocution.”

Date: 27-Jul-42
Originator: Schwarzbart
Recipients: WJ, Zygielbojm, JTA, Reuters
Published: various newspapers
Topic: cable saying "Germans have begun mass murder in the ghetto of Warsaw"; Schwarzbart listed source as "Minister of Interior Mr Mikolajczyk"

Date: 25-Jul-42
Originator: Delegatura
Topic: long report on Great Deportation "Pro memoria o sytuacji w kraju"

Date: 26-Jul-42
Originator: Korbonski in Warsaw
Published: radio message
Topic: description of Great Deportation saying "the deportation of 6,000 was posted" (dropping word “daily” from source)

Date: 29-Jul-42
Publsihed: Dziennik Polski
Topic: "Dramatic news from the country: Mass executions of Poles and Jews"; poison gas at Belzec mentioned

Date: 29-Jul-42
Published: Dziennik Polski
Topic: "Jews From Warsaw Deported to the East" - 6k resettled a day - "two trains have already left, for death"

Date: 7-Aug-42
Originator: unknown
Recipient: Abraham Lewin
Published: no, diary entry
Topic: "the crematorium near Malkinia and Sokolov"

Date: 8-Aug-42
Originator: Gerhart Reigner, WJC representative in Geneva
Recipient: WJC in NYC and London
Published: cable
Topic: Hitler’s plan to exterminate Europe’s Jews, “prussic acid,” “exactitude cannot be confirmed”

Date:11-Aug-42
Originator: K. Abraham
Recipient: Lewin
Published: no, diary entry
Topic: "Smolar rang Sokolow. He was told that those that are deported, or if they are deported to Tr., are going to their 'death.' The news that K. brought. In Warsaw there is a Jew by the name of Slawa who has brought reports of Treblinka. Fifteen kilometres before the station at Treblinka the Germans take over the train. When people get out of the trains they are beaten viciously. Then they are driven into huge barracks. For five minutes heart-rending screams are heard, then silence. The bodies that are taken out are swollen horribly. One person cannot get their arms round one of the bodies, so distended are they. Young men from among the prisoners are the gravediggers, the next day they too are killed. What horror."

Date: ?
Originator: unknown
Recipient: Stefan Ernest diary, YVA (member Warsaw Judenrat)
Topic: "The destination [Treblinka] was discovered at the beginning of the second half of August"

Date: 11-Aug-42
Originator: Korbonski in Warsaw
Recipients: given to Schwazbart and Zygielbojm on 15 Aug, Zygielbojm gave to JTA
Published: cable to London
Topic: "From the ghetto, 7,000 are taken away daily for slaughter. The president of the Jewish Council, Czerniakow, committed suicide."

Date: 15-Aug-42
Published: Reuters
Topic: Czerniakow's suicide citing Swiss source, 7k per day quota

Date: 17-Aug-42
Published: Current Information
Topic: 113,000 as of 7 Aug deported from Warsaw to Treblinka; fake shower story, "The gas chambers are mobile" [but per Matthew Ellard: The AUG42 edition of Biuletyn Informacyjni was concerned with mobile extermination units. Treblinka II, the camp, is first mentioned in the October 23rd 1942 edition.] Informacja Bieżąca dated August 17, 1942, a mobile gas chamber is discussed:[Mattogno]
"After the departure of the steam engines, the Jews are forced to undress, supposedly for the bath; then they are led into the gas chamber and executed, whereupon they - sometimes still living - are buried in excavated pits. The pits are excavated by machine; the gas chamber is mobile and moves back and forth over the pits. The camp strength amounted to 40,000 Jews on August 5, about 5,000 are executed daily. The liquidation is carried out by Ukrainians under the leadership of SS-men. The operation in the Warsaw Ghetto is supposed to be completed by September of this year."

Date: sometime in Aug?
Originator: Jacob Rabinowicz, Treblinka escapee
Recipient: Oyneg Shabes
Published: no, OS interview
Topic: Rabinowicz was a journalist, his report led to Bund Frydrych mission (Arad BST) - gas chambers, "diesel"

Date: 19-Aug-42
Originator: Gen Rowecki 6th Dept, Polish government, London
Published, no, 25 Aug dispatch
Topic: "Since July 22, liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto (400,000 inhabitants) has contniued . . . Till now 5-6 and at present 15 thousand daily have been deported. Apparently, the majority is murdered in Belzec and Treblinka, a part to be assigned to labor . . . . To this point more than 150,000 have been deported."

Date: 20-Aug-42
Originator: Vendel, Swedish consul in Stettin
Recipient: Swedish government (Vendel met with German army officer, possibly part of von Tresckow resistance circle)
Topic: re: murder of 40k Lublin Jews at Belzec, "The Jews over fifty years of age and children under ten are especially subjected to extermination. The rest are left alive in order to fill the gap in the workforce; they will be exterminated as soon as they are no longer useful. Their property is confiscated; it mostly falls into the hands of SS men": description of deportations and fake delousing stories - "Delousing is in practice gassing, after which all are packed into previously prepared mass graves."

Date: 28-Aug-42
Originator: David Nowodworski, Treblinka escapee
Recipient: Abraham Lewin
Publsihed: no, diary entry
Topic: "Today we had a long talk with Dowid Nowodworski, who returned from Treblinka. He gave us the complete story of the sufferings that he endured from the first moment he was seized to the escape from the death camp and up to his return from Warsaw. His words confirm once again and leave no room for doubt that all the deportees, both those who have been seized and those who reported voluntarily, are taken to be killed and that no one is saved."

Date: 31-Aug-42
Originator: Polish Undergound
Recipient: Polish government in London
Published: no, cable "Text of the cable": 15k deported daily to 4 execution sites

Date: 31-Aug-42
Originator: Bund London by courier
Published: yes, in mid Nov, see 20 Sep entry below
Recipient: "Liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto"

Date: ?
Recipient: reached London by courier, mid Nov
Topic: "Anti-Jewish Action 1942" with enclosures

Date: 8-Sep-42
Published: Current Information
Topic: "Treblinka extermination camp, the place where the Jews are being killed"; "The extermination of the Jews is now carried out in a way that is completely independent of the old camp" - description of trains, supposed "shower to bathe," "groups of 300-500 people" "gassed" in shower building at a time, delayed action of gas, mention of escapee - "The extermination of the Jews takes place entirely independently from the events in the camp. The steam engine pushes the cars with the Jews under the ramp, all in sequence. The Ukrainians pull the Jews out of the cars and lead them to the 'bath' in the bathhouse. This is a building surrounded by barbed wire. They enter in groups of 300 to 500 persons. Each group is immediately locked up hermetically and gassed. Of course, this gas is not immediately effective, for the Jews have to walk to the pits afterwards, which are about ten to twenty meters away and 30 m deep. There they lose consciousness and fall into the pits, and the excavator sprinkles a thin layer of earth upon them. Then the next group follows." [Mattogno]

Date: 10-Sep-42
Originator: Polish Undergound
Recipient: Polish government in London
Published: no, cable
Topic: "Text to be sent": 300k Jews from Warsaw murdered, only 40k intended to be left after 1 Oct

Date: 18-Sep-42
Originator: Delegatura
Recipient: Polish government in London, rec'd 9 Jan 43?
Published: no, cable
Topic: "Text to be sent": only 33k left in Warsaw ghetto

Date: sometime in Sep?
Originator: David Nowodworski, Treblinka escapee
Recipient: Oyneg Shabes interview
Topic: per Engelking, returned to ghetto 10 Aug; fought in uprising, escaped ghetto but seized and killed by Gestapo

Date: sometime in Sep?
Originator: Jacob Rabinowicz, Treblinka escapee
Recipient: Oyneg Shabes interview
Topic: gas chambers, "diesel"

Date: sometime after 13-Sep-42
Originator: Abraham Krzepicki, Treblinka escapee
Topic: arrives back in Warsaw ghetto, interview with Auerbach starts in Dec-42

Date: 20-Sep-42
Originator: Zalman Fryrdrych, based on Aug fact-finding effort
Published: Oif der Vach, (special edition of Bund newspaper), article written by Leon Feiner
Topic: "The Jews of Warsaw Are Killed in Treblinka" - resettlements are "a lie" - information comes from "the stories of the Poles and of those Jews who succeeded in escaping from the trains or from Treblinka" - fake "baths" - "digging machine" - "The bath was actually a house of murder. The floor in this barrack opened up and the people fell into a machine" - opinions of escapees vary: some say the victims "were gassed," others say "they were killed by electrical current." 20k killed a day - Treblinka one of 3 camps, one near Pinsk, Belzec near Lublin (according to Gutman, Frydrych set out sometime in Aug, maybe early, met Uziel Wallach, Treblinka escapee, in Sokolov)

Date: 2-Oct-42
Originator: Delegatura forwarding Bund message
Recipient: Polish government in London, rec'd Dec 42
Topic: 300k Jews of Warsaw exterminated, only handful of Bund members had survived, protest against silence of Free World

Date: 5-Oct-42
Published: Current Information
Topic: On October 5, 1942, the Polish underground newspaper Informacja bieżąca (Current Information), circulated the following report: [Mattogno]
"Treblinka. The death camp is once more in operation. Transports arrive from the entire country (lastly Radom, Siedlce, Międzyrzec). Presently not 20 but 10 trains are allowed to approach at a time, for it takes a long time until the bodies of those who died on the way (20-30%) have been unloaded. The gas chambers function as follows: Outside of the barracks is a 20 HP internal combustion engine, which is in operation around the clock. The end of its exhaust pipe is mounted in a wall of the barracks; the exhaust gases, with the admixture of toxic fluids, which have been specially mixed into the fuel of the engine, kill the people locked up in the barracks. Besides the Jewish workers, there is a Jewish orchestra as well as a group of Jewish women in the camp area with whom the staff enjoys itself.
Up to the end of August, 320,000 Jews were exterminated in Treblinka."

Date: 15-Oct-42
Originators: escapees from Treblinka
Recipient: Emanuel Ringelblum
Published: no, diary entry backdated to 15 Oct
Topic: On October 15, 1942, Emmanuel Ringelblum noted in his "ghetto chronicle": [Mattogno]"Information from the gravediggers (Jakob Rabinowicz), the Jews from Stoczek, who have escaped from the trains loaded with objects, gold, and cash. Congruent description of the 'bath,' the gravediggers with golden patches on the knees.
Method of killing: gas, steam, electricity”
Also as: "the news about the gravediggers (Rabinowicz, Jacob), the news from Stok who escaped from the wagons . . . the unanimous description of the 'bath,' the Jewish gravediggers with yellow patches on their knees. - The method of killing: gas, steam, electricity"

Date: mid-Oct-42
Originator: Peretz Opoczynski
Published: no, Oyneg Shabes report
Topic: "giant electric chair" in Treblinka

Date: mid-Oct-42
Originator: Polish consulate in Istanbul
Recipient: Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Published: no, cable
Topic: "Jewish activists in Istanbul received completely reliable news that the Germans have begun the speeded physical liquidation of the ghetto in Warsaw and other cities in Poland", victims processed into fertilizer and fat

Date: mid-Oct-42
Originators: survivors of Treblinka
Recipients: Gisi Fleischmann's Working Group (Slovakia)
Published: no, letters
Topic: "lethal fumes" killing Jews in "facilities" "near Belzec"

Date: 23-Oct-42
Published: Biuletyn Informacyjni - Treblinka II, the camp, is mentioned in the October 23rd 1942 edition. [Matthew Ellard]
Date: Nov?
Topic: Rudolph Reder escapes from Belzec

Date: 9-Nov-42
Originators: Minister Mikolajcczyk
Recipient: Delegatura in Poland
Published: no, cable request for information
Topic: are deportations of 7k a day continuing?

Topic: 15-Nov-42
Originators: various witnesses
Recipients: Hersh Wasser, Eliyahu Gutkowski, Oybneg Shabes
Published: JTA Bulletin, November 1942, also Dziennek Polski; later - The Black Book of Polish Jewry in 1943, summary in NYT Aug 1943, version published in Switzerland in 1944
Topic: "The Liquidation of Jewish Warsaw"; see Kassow p 311 - report on Great Deportation (Wasser), witness accounts Treblinka (Gutkowski) at behest of ZZN, overseen and edited by Ringelblum, smuggled to Londoni, steam chambers (compare: AK Bureau of Information published brochure "The Liquidation of Warsaw Ghetto" by Antoni Szymanowski)

Date: 23-Nov-42
Originator: Karski ?
Recipient: Minister Mikolajczyk
Topic: message to Delegatura that Wasser’s report had arrived in London

Date: 24-Nov-42
Originator: Oyneg Shabes report on Treblinka
Recipients: also to British Section WJC, Foreign Office JTA, others
Published: Dziennik Polski on 26 Nov
Topic: release of contents of reports that had arrived on 23 Nov

Date: 27-Nov-42
Originator: Schwartzbart
Recipient: special session of National Council
Published: BBC, many newspapers
Topic: resolution protesting Nazi crimes "against the Polish antion and in particular against the Jewish population in Poland"; over 1 million Jews murdered

Date: 2-Dec-42
Originator: Karski
Recipients: Zygielbojm, Schwarzbart
Published: meeting in London

Date: 17-Dec-42
Published: UN declaration on mass execution of Jews

Date: Dec-42 to Jan-43 [other sources say Oct-42]
Originator: Abraham Krzepicki, Treblinka escapee
Recipient: Rachel Auerbach, Oyneg Shabes
Published, no, interview gas chamber
Topic: Krzepicki deported to Treblinka 25 Aug, in camp 2 weeks, sorting detail, wrote out detailed plan of camp, escaped 13 Sep, witness to Meir Berliner stabbing of Max Bielas (also in other testimonies) (joined ZOB, died in uprising)

Date: 1-Feb-43
Originators: hearsay from French and Belgian POWs at Rawa Ruska
Recipients: PRD Stockholm to PID London
Topic: "The Germans themselves, they added, boasted that they had constructed gas chambers where Jews were systematically killed and buried"

Date: 1-Aug-43
Originator: David Milgroim, escapee from Treblinka in 42
Recipient: report in Slovakia, passed to OSS in Istanbul early 44
Published: Canadian Jewish Chronicle, Jan 44
Topic: "poison gas"

sources:
Dariusz Stola, "Early News of the Holocaust from Poland, Institute of Political Studies, Polish Academy of Sciences, @ academic.edu
Harrison et al, Critique
Kassow, Who Will Write Our History?
Arad, BST Gutman The Jews of Warsaw
Engelking & Leociak, The Warsaw Ghetto
Bauer, American Jewry and the Holocaust
 
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The holocaust had been over for months by the time Belsen was liberated. Belsen wasn't a holocaust death camp anyway. The holocaust took place in Poland in camps such as Auschwitz. There were no death camps in Germany proper. What he witnessed wasn't a result of deliberate German policy but of the complete collapse of the German government and infrastructure. None of it had anything to do with the extermination of the Jews. The only connection between Belsen and the holocaust is that pictures . . .

The Final Solution was ended in fall 1944, but the murder of Jews and others, along with deaths of Jews and others from abuse and mistreatment, continued into spring 1945. But the issue was eyewitness testimony, the example was Belsen, and you reply that Belsen isn't related to the Holocaust as though different standards for witness testimony exist for Holocaust and non-Holocaust events. Baffling.
 
. . . The holocaust took place in Poland in camps such as Auschwitz. . . .

This is partly correct, and partly incorrect, in that it leaves out the more than 2 million Holocaust victims - mobile shootings, ghetto deaths, camps in the Transnistria, etc - that Dogzilla tries to avoid.
 
No, just pointing out that one of the big name holocaust survivor witnesses wasn't actually a "victim of the holocaust." Or is Primo Levi just another Wiesel? A nobody that scholars don't use (as if scholars had any bearing on public knowledge of the holocaust anyway)?

Pretend Wiesel (or whoever) is a fraud. One possible fraud compared to the thousands of frauds Holocaust Deniers have committed? Interesting math.
 
No, just pointing out that one of the big name holocaust survivor witnesses wasn't actually a "victim of the holocaust." Or is Primo Levi just another Wiesel? A nobody that scholars don't use (as if scholars had any bearing on public knowledge of the holocaust anyway)?

Well, Primo Levi was a victim of the Holocaust - but not a a murder victim - as he was selected for slave labor rather than death - Dogzilla keeps conveniently forgetting that a minority of Jews shipped of Auschwitz were selected for labor, but not with a long life expectancy due to work and camp conditions. IIRC his transport went straight to Monowitz. Levi's writing focuses on conditions and life for prisoners in Auschwitz, not the killing process, as he worked in Monowitz and, then, at the Buna Werke there as a lab assistant. His works are referenced extensively - as they should be, as they are not only careful expositions of camp life but reflective and thought provoking.

Why is someone this ignorant of the basic literature sounding off about it?
 
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I strongly reccommend the Periodic Table by Primo Levi

Once again Dogzilla demonstrates his ignornace and knowedge of nothing

I strongly recommend everything by Primo Levi. One of the first books I read on the camps was Life in Auschwitz bound with The Reawakening. The Drowned and the Saved, as Nick says, is also a wonderful book, as is The Periodic Table.
 
Because when you boil it all down, arguments from ignorance are all the deniers have. Any attempt to assemble the basic literature into an alternate narrative falls apart.

Nick's point about deniers' (in general) and Dogzilla's (in particular) utter inability even to suggest the outlines of an alternative explanation is spot on. Dogzilla not only doesn't understand that this inability is fatal to his being taken seriously by thoughtful, inquisitive people - but he trumpets his failure, with a fanfare of "I don't know, I don't care," as though his incapacity were something he should be proud of.
 
Clay, there actually were millions of people who were displaced from their homes in Europe during the war. The Nazis did move alot of Germans into newly occupied territories and concentrated ethnic Germans scattered throughout eastern Europe in places they wanted Germanized. There were alot of people who fled the advancing armies in the west and in the east. Millions of Germans were forcibly uprooted from the east by the Russians and many people in Europe tried to escape being trapped in a Soviet zone of occupation. Europe had never seen a migration of so many people as it did during the war. So Nazi Germany moving Jews from one place to another isn't unbelievable or impossible. It really did happen. Just like it happened to many other non-Jewish people. In the process, people lost track of friends and relatives. If a husband, wife, and teenage son were separated and each one didn't know where the other two were after the war, they would be missing and would search for each other. If they were Jewish, the husband would assume his wife and son had been murdered, the wife would assume the husband and the son had been murdered, and the son would assume his mother and father had been murdered. Maybe they would look for each other right after the war but if they "knew" the others had been murdered, they probably wouldn't continue looking. Why look for somebody when you know they're dead? So you have a family of three that all survived and you also have six people who perished in the Shoah to report to Yad Vashem. A similarly situated family of five could all survive but lose contact with other, yielding twenty people who perished in the Shoah.

So deportation happened. People displaced during the war happened. People losing contact with people they knew happened. Deportation isn't ridiculous. It's saying that all the deported who happened to be Jewish were murdered is what is ridiculous.

They started with a religious number, 6 million, and filled in the blanks with numbers until they roughly "fit." The numbers of Jewish people killed from individual countries that historians use build a 6 million total are, save the 3 million number from Poland, are absurdly skewed.

The 3 million Polish number is absurd. The 3 million alleged gassings of Jewish people is also absurd.

Every time a number was found to be positively untrue adjustments were made to keep the total of Jewish people killed at 6 million.

The key that breaks the Holocaust's back is the gas chamber and gassing van fabrications.

The labor and associated cremations were impossible to keep up with rate of alleged gassings. There just wasn't enough time in a day.

Then there is testimony of Zyklon-B killing 2000 people in a half hour.
And there is the eyewitness testimony that said the Zyklon-B victims were

Then there is the van/truck exhaust fumes killing 50 or more Jewish people at a time fabrication. And again the labor wasn't available to "clean up" and dispose of the bodies.

The above impossibilities are why Ike and Churchill and de Gaulle never mentioned gassing in their post war writings.
Which means that about 3 million Jewish people never arrived at the camps.

The Majdanek death count has changed from 1.5 million(1945) to 350,000(1960's) to 35,000(2007) but the 6 million figure remains.

http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/niz.html
One of the interesting things about the holocaust is that if the eyewitnesses go into any kind of detail at all, no two of them describe the same thing. This writer claims to have worked at Auschwitz under the infamous Dr. Mengele.

AUSCHWITZ: A Doctor's Eyewitness Account, by Dr. Miklos Nyiszli

http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...-used-in-the-auschwitz-birkenau-gas-chambers/

http://www.codoh.com/library/document/199

The Adventure of Revisionism
By Robert Faurisson

Revisionism can correct history, but it will correct nothing of human nature. On the other hand, the future will prove the Revisionists, as writers of history, were right. There is already too much evidence to show that the progress of Revisionism is inexorable. Revisionism is destined for a place in history as "the great intellectual adventure of the end of the century."

Translated by Theodore J. O'Keefe.

Reprinted by permission from The Journal of Historical Review Vol. 13, No. 5, Sept./Oct. 1993.



Death from Hydrogen Cyanide (HCl) poisoning i.e. ZyklonB, causes the body to turn a cherry red color, yet testimonies claim the bodies were blue, yellow, and other colors.
 
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