Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I think the more likely scenario is George tried to detain Trayvon, a scuffle ensued, then George made up details to absolve himself of any blame.

I agree it's possible. If you had to vote on a jury at this moment in time, based upon all of the evidence we have seen, are you willing to send this man to jail (murder 2) for what could be the rest of his life?

 

[marplots]

I agree it's possible. If you had to vote on a jury at this moment in time, based upon all of the evidence we have seen, are you willing to send this man to jail (murder 2) for what could be the rest of his life?

Sounds like a poll is in order. We could compare the vote now to see if it changes after the case is decided.

 

[AlBell]

Thank you. I saw the link. I still disagree with Murder 2. There was implied premeditation when Zimmerman called whomever saying stuff about people.

Yawn. At least you have some company here -- fewer than a dozen if I read things correctly -- firmly convinced GZ was hunting a ****** to shoot.

You may even be correct, but the evidence we've seen imo far exceeds what will be presented at trial, and still doesn't rise to BeyondAReasonableDoubt status.

Not Guilty of M2, and likely Not Guilty of manslaughter either.

 

[KatieG]

Big evidence release coming tomorrow:

http://globalgrind.com/news/prosecu...-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-details

Special Prosecutor Angela Corey will release more evidence in the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case on Thursday, including a first look at what FBI agents have turned up in their civil rights investigation.

According to the Orlando Sentinel:

Nearly a dozen FBI agents interviewed several Sanford police officers, including the case's lead investigator, Chris Serino.

They also talked to Zimmerman's former girlfriend, who accused him in court paperwork of being violent; neighbor Frank Taffee; several unidentified civilian witnesses and several gun shop employees, including those who worked at the store where Zimmerman bought the gun he used to shoot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Summaries or copies of those interviews will be in the new evidence, but there'll be no official finding by the FBI or the agency overseeing the federal investigation, the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice.

The DOJ stepped in an began their probe after numerous outcries of Sanford police doing a shoddy, racially-biased investigation and refusing to arrest Zimmerman.

Zimmerman was arrested and charged with second-degree murder on April 11. Expected to be revealed in the new evidence:

•Email from Zimmerman and Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee.

•Cell phone records from Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin.

•The testimony of 21 new unidentified "civilian" witnesses – those not working for a government agency.

•What Central Florida gun shop owners had to say about Zimmerman's comments and behavior while buying the gun that killed Trayvon, taking target practice and getting training for his concealed weapons permit.

•What Zimmerman told police dispatchers and officers the six times he called Sanford and Seminole County authorities, presumably reporting problems as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, in the six months before Trayvon's shooting.

•The account of a private investigator hired by the Martin family.

•Crime scene photos, diagrams and dispatch records.

•Seminole County jail records.

•What state alcohol agents had to say about Zimmerman's 2005 arrest for resisting arrest without violence during a raid at a bar near the University of Central Florida.

Zimmerman remains in a safe house in Seminole County as he awaits trial his next court date is Aug. 8

 

[AlBell]

IMO, GZ's biggest worry will be Federal, probably hate-crime, indictment.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Big evidence release coming tomorrow:

http://globalgrind.com/news/prosecu...-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-details

Special Prosecutor Angela Corey will release more evidence in the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case on Thursday, including a first look at what FBI agents have turned up in their civil rights investigation.

According to the Orlando Sentinel:

Nearly a dozen FBI agents interviewed several Sanford police officers, including the case's lead investigator, Chris Serino.

They also talked to Zimmerman's former girlfriend, who accused him in court paperwork of being violent; neighbor Frank Taffee; several unidentified civilian witnesses and several gun shop employees, including those who worked at the store where Zimmerman bought the gun he used to shoot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Summaries or copies of those interviews will be in the new evidence, but there'll be no official finding by the FBI or the agency overseeing the federal investigation, the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice.

The DOJ stepped in an began their probe after numerous outcries of Sanford police doing a shoddy, racially-biased investigation and refusing to arrest Zimmerman.
[...]

It sounds as if the DOJ and FBI don't have a case against anyone after their investigation ?

ETA: Or do I not understand the glacial speed at which they move ?

 

[Bob001]

I agree it's possible. If you had to vote on a jury at this moment in time, based upon all of the evidence we have seen, are you willing to send this man to jail (murder 2) for what could be the rest of his life?

Personally, I think voluntary manslaughter most closely fits the facts as we understand them. I don't think GZ set out with the intention of killing anybody, but I think that he did in fact kill somebody without good cause. I'm not convinced that it was reasonable for GZ to believe that his life was in danger. If it turns out that TM's fingerprints were found on the gun, or a reliable witness heard TM screaming "I'll kill you!," or that GZ's injuries were substantially more severe than have been reported, I might reconsider. On the other hand, if a reliable witness heard TM screaming "Stop! Please don't shoot!," I might reconsider in the other direction.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/homicide-murder-manslaughter-32637.html

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

It sounds as if the DOJ and FBI don't have a case against anyone after their investigation ?

ETA: Or do I not understand the glacial speed at which they move ?

"There will be no official finding" means "we'll wait and see if a jury acquits him, and if it does and there is enough outrage, than we'll ignore the constitution and try him a second time on cooked civil rights charges" .

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Personally, I think voluntary manslaughter most closely fits the facts as we understand them. I don't think GZ set out with the intention of killing anybody, but I think that he did in fact kill somebody without good cause. I'm not convinced that it was reasonable for GZ to believe that his life was in danger. If it turns out that TM's fingerprints were found on the gun, or a reliable witness heard TM screaming "I'll kill you!," or that GZ's injuries were substantially more severe than have been reported, I might reconsider. On the other hand, if a reliable witness heard TM screaming "Stop! Please don't shoot!," I might reconsider in the other direction.[/url]

Thanks for the answer, I respect that position.

 

[GWCarver]

Personally, I think voluntary manslaughter most closely fits the facts as we understand them. I don't think GZ set out with the intention of killing anybody, but I think that he did in fact kill somebody without good cause. I'm not convinced that it was reasonable for GZ to believe that his life was in danger. If it turns out that TM's fingerprints were found on the gun, or a reliable witness heard TM screaming "I'll kill you!," or that GZ's injuries were substantially more severe than have been reported, I might reconsider. On the other hand, if a reliable witness heard TM screaming "Stop! Please don't shoot!," I might reconsider in the other direction.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/homicide-murder-manslaughter-32637.html

I disagree. I think self-defense is a very good reason for Zimmerman to have shot Trayvon Martin. Not finding TM's fingerprints on the gun is essentially meaningless because we have no reason to believe his hand was ever on the gun. I don't think TM not screaming, "I'll kill you" loud enough for people inside of their homes to hear it is a reason to convict Zimmerman and send him to prison. The law only requires fear of great bodily harm to use deadly force, and Zimmerman's screams demonstrate an abundance of fear, so the severity of his injuries, in that respect, are irrelevant.

Here is a link that might help some understand where Corey is coming from and why the Governor and Bondi turned her loose on Zimmerman, whose father is white and mother is Hispanic.

https://www.change.org/petitions/justice-for-kenitra-casper-remove-angela-corey-from-office

 

[Unabogie]

I disagree. I think self-defense is a very good reason for Zimmerman to have shot Trayvon Martin. Not finding TM's fingerprints on the gun is essentially meaningless because we have no reason to believe his hand was ever on the gun. I don't think TM not screaming, "I'll kill you" loud enough for people inside of their homes to hear it is a reason to convict Zimmerman and send him to prison. The law only requires fear of great bodily harm to use deadly force, and Zimmerman's screams demonstrate an abundance of fear, so the severity of his injuries, in that respect, are irrelevant.

Here is a link that might help some understand where Corey is coming from and why the Governor and Bondi turned her loose on Zimmerman, whose father is white and mother is Hispanic.

https://www.change.org/petitions/justice-for-kenitra-casper-remove-angela-corey-from-office

Just to clarify, we know that Trayvon's fingerprints are not on the gun, nor is his DNA. More importantly, we know from George's own story that Trayvon never touched the gun. He says he felt his arm go down his chest, he "understood" that Trayvon was going for the gun, so he grabbed it and shot him.

So for the record, there will be no proof that Trayvon ever did this aside from the word of Zimmerman.

 

[marplots]

I thought the feds were investigating the cops, not GZ. Set me straight here.

 

[triforcharity]

Thank you. I saw the link. I still disagree with Murder 2. There was implied premeditation when Zimmerman called whomever saying stuff about people.

Good. Here's the BIGGEST reason for not charging with M1.

Intent. It's difficult to prove intent, and in this case, it would be even more difficult. Dare I say impossible. They would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to kill TM when he got out of the truck. With him being on the phone with the cops before the shot was fired, severely damages any claim of intent.

 

[triforcharity]

Big evidence release coming tomorrow:

http://globalgrind.com/news/prosecu...-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-details

Special Prosecutor Angela Corey will release more evidence in the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case on Thursday, including a first look at what FBI agents have turned up in their civil rights investigation.

According to the Orlando Sentinel:

Nearly a dozen FBI agents interviewed several Sanford police officers, including the case's lead investigator, Chris Serino.

They also talked to Zimmerman's former girlfriend, who accused him in court paperwork of being violent; neighbor Frank Taffee; several unidentified civilian witnesses and several gun shop employees, including those who worked at the store where Zimmerman bought the gun he used to shoot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Summaries or copies of those interviews will be in the new evidence, but there'll be no official finding by the FBI or the agency overseeing the federal investigation, the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice.

The DOJ stepped in an began their probe after numerous outcries of Sanford police doing a shoddy, racially-biased investigation and refusing to arrest Zimmerman.

Zimmerman was arrested and charged with second-degree murder on April 11. Expected to be revealed in the new evidence:

•Email from Zimmerman and Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee.

•Cell phone records from Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin.

•The testimony of 21 new unidentified "civilian" witnesses – those not working for a government agency.

•What Central Florida gun shop owners had to say about Zimmerman's comments and behavior while buying the gun that killed Trayvon, taking target practice and getting training for his concealed weapons permit. •What Zimmerman told police dispatchers and officers the six times he called Sanford and Seminole County authorities, presumably reporting problems as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, in the six months before Trayvon's shooting.

•The account of a private investigator hired by the Martin family.

•Crime scene photos, diagrams and dispatch records.

•Seminole County jail records.

•What state alcohol agents had to say about Zimmerman's 2005 arrest for resisting arrest without violence during a raid at a bar near the University of Central Florida.

Zimmerman remains in a safe house in Seminole County as he awaits trial his next court date is Aug. 8

My hilite.

I think this one will be the most telling. It should be interesting to see what they have to say.

 

[crimresearch]

Thank you. I saw the link. I still disagree with Murder 2. There was implied premeditation when Zimmerman called whomever saying stuff about people.

'Implied premeditation' and 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt of *deliberate* premeditation and malice', are two different sets.
The latter words don't mean in court what they might mean in casual conversation, they have to meet legal tests

For the Commonwealth to prove
deliberate premeditation, the Commonwealth must prove that the
defendant thought before he6 acted; that is, the defendant
decided to kill after deliberation. The element of deliberation,
however, does not require an extended time span, nor does it mean
that the deliberation must be accomplished slowly. Rather it
refers to the purposeful character of the premeditation.
Deliberation may be a matter of days, hours or even seconds. It
is not so much a matter of time as of logical sequence. First,
the deliberation and premeditation, then the decision to kill,
and lastly, the killing in furtherance of the decision.

http://www.mass.gov/courts/sjc/docs/homicideinstructions.pdf

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml#

.

There is no evidence so far that would reach the legal threshold to prove that Zimmerman maliciously planned to kill before the actual encounter.

Being annoyed that they always get away, is OK for speculation that he got mad and shot in the heat of the moment, but it isn't enough to prove malice, or premeditation... or to charge 1st degree.

 

[crimresearch]

My hilite.

I think this one will be the most telling. It should be interesting to see what they have to say.

I won't be surprised if they say what I posted very early in the first thread...

 

[crimresearch]

Personally, I think voluntary manslaughter most closely fits the facts as we understand them. I don't think GZ set out with the intention of killing anybody, but I think that he did in fact kill somebody without good cause. I'm not convinced that it was reasonable for GZ to believe that his life was in danger. If it turns out that TM's fingerprints were found on the gun, or a reliable witness heard TM screaming "I'll kill you!," or that GZ's injuries were substantially more severe than have been reported, I might reconsider. On the other hand, if a reliable witness heard TM screaming "Stop! Please don't shoot!," I might reconsider in the other direction.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/homicide-murder-manslaughter-32637.html

Yep... better facts would give a narrower conclusion.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I thought the feds were investigating the cops, not GZ. Set me straight here.

I believe the Feds were also searching for evidence that a civil rights crime was committed here, i.e. that this was a racially motivated murder by GZ the closet KKK member.

 

[triforcharity]

It sounds as if the DOJ and FBI don't have a case against anyone after their investigation ?

ETA: Or do I not understand the glacial speed at which they move ?

No, the DOJ and FBI said at the beginning of the investigation that it would most likely be more than a year before they have any findings to release, which is not unusual.

 

[crimresearch]

Just an observation: Before he obtained his CWP, GZ had to take a course that covered firearms laws, particularly the use of deadly force. He was also a student in a criminal justice program, the son of a magistrate and an apparent cop wannabe. He very likely had more information about the subject than most people, and once he decided to carry a gun it would be surprising if he hadn't carefully considered what he would need to say and how he would need to behave if he ever shot anybody. Many people in a similar situation might have been spluttering "I'm not sure what happened, it was so fast, I'm hurt, this is terrible...." GZ apparently met the first officer with his hands on his head and said essentially "My weapon is holstered on my belt. I shot the subject because I was afraid for my life." It might all have happened just the way GZ says, or it might have happened just the way he remembered his script.

Which is what I've been saying since the beginning... what GZ recited is suspciously like what gets bandied about in those 3 hour 'courses', in gun forums, stores, etc.

And it is suspiciously like what an innocent person would say if it were true.