Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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Though this shroud thread is not nearly as much fun as the "past lives/reincarnation guy" or the "room temp super conductivity guy", or the "Amega wand" fun filled extravaganza, there is something that keeps me coming back, thinking, hoping, that suddenly the shroud guy will say, "Oh, OK, so it's a fake. So what?":)
 
OK, consider your self mocked in the most thorough and complete way.

In fact here's a mocker just for you:


Mocha.jpg
 
Some threads are utterly pointless and never go anywhere, while others keep kicking up all sorts of interesting facts and information. This thread definitely falls into the latter category, which is why I keep lurking and occasionally posting.

I don't believe that Jabba will ever understand how anyone could doubt the shroud's authenticity. He just doesn't see it.

And I'm still waiting for his promised alteration to the ending of my courtroom analogy post. Should be good.
 
Though this shroud thread is not nearly as much fun as the "past lives/reincarnation guy" or the "room temp super conductivity guy", or the "Amega wand" fun filled extravaganza, there is something that keeps me coming back, thinking, hoping, that suddenly the shroud guy will say, "Oh, OK, so it's a fake. So what?":)
Agree.

True shroud/Fake shroud, What possible difference could it make to a faith?

ETA: Unless you were not too sure about your faith.
 
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I've asked Jabba for a link to Shroudie forum that has intelligent convos about the TS.
I hope the thread doesn't die before he answers me.
Ladewig's decision is honourable and dignified.

However, I'm hoping Jabba will get around to actually telling us why he thinks the TS is authentic.
 
I've asked Jabba for a link to Shroudie forum that has intelligent convos about the TS.
I hope the thread doesn't die before he answers me.
Ladewig's decision is honourable and dignified.However, I'm hoping Jabba will get around to actually telling us why he thinks the TS is authentic.

Oh, no doubt--I'm not criticizing anyone for leaving. Jabba has clearly shown that he's not honest, and that discussions with him aren't going to go anywhere useful. I merely objected to his characterization of my reasons for staying, is all. :) Ladewig's choice to leave is fully understandable--it's just that his assessment of why I'm staying is wrong. No fault on his part; Jabba's been moving so slowly that I haven't been able to fully explain why I was asking about the C14 contamination, so Ladewig's interpretation wasn't unreasonable.
 
Dinwar, I didn't mean to imply anything with my comment about our fellow poster's exit from the thread.

I'm not even sure why I'm here myself, except as a learning experience.
A thread that combines calculations, holy foreskins, shroudie conferences and this?
leschiffoniers560shopbo.jpg


I wouldn't miss it for the world.
 
Carbon Dating - Reweaving?

- As previously admitted, I know very little about carbon dating – and what (I think that) I know comes mostly from activity on this thread. But then, while I think that there will be a correlation between one’s C-14 knowledge and one’s ability to evaluate the claims of C-14 experts, I doubt that the correlation is very strong. That’s my basic position.
- And actually, I think that I can use a quote from davefoc (sorry, Dave) to express my take: “So it seems like just a battle of experts and one side or the other might be right. Who can tell, we're not experts?
- “But I think there is a way to sort this out. Biases provide a very strong influence on what people believe, so just because a lot of people believe something is not very good evidence that it is true. So to sort this one needs to actually make judgments about the credibility of the advocates for each side and the credibility of the evidence and arguments for both sides.”

- In other words, in order for me to ARRIVE AT A REASONABLE CONCLUSION about the validity of the carbon dating in this case, I shouldn’t need to be an expert in carbon dating – I just need to be able to effectively weigh the evidence provided by the two sides...
- And then, in order to ARGUE my conclusion effectively, I simply need to be able to PRESENT my evidence and reasoning effectively…

- That should get a big laugh (“So, why don’t you do it already?!!!”), but it IS exactly what I am TRYING to do – you guys just don’t appreciate how difficult it is to climb one branch of this exponential tree of debate to its end. Here, I am trying to climb Dinwar’s question/branch to its end while at the same time being goaded by the slings and arrows into climbing numerous other branches instead. (I wonder how many slings and arrows THIS claim will launch.)

- Trying first to think through my own perceived logic of carbon dating – before studying the specific math – I think that, basically, we’re looking for THE MEAN AGE OF THE THREADS IN THE SAMPLE. The following formula should reflect the basic idea for determining the percentage of threads 500 years old (X (the age of the alleged patch)) versus the percentage of threads 2000 years old (1-X) in the sample, in order to arrive at a mean of 700 years old.
- Using the ages of the two hypothetical origins of thread in the sample -- rather than the amount of remaining C-14 (per something) of those two origins – to arrive at the percentage of new thread in the sample needed to offset the old, and arrive at a mean of 700 years, I would use the following formula: (X*2000+(X-1)*500)/2 = 700, or X = .96.
- Using this abbreviated formula, I’d need the sample to be made up of 96% new thread…

- For some reason, the experts say that it’s not that simple…
- I’ll be back after studying what they have to say.

--- Jabba
 
Carbon Dating - Reweaving?

- I just ask for patience. If you guys can be patient with me, I'll eventually get there.
--- Jabba
 
- I just ask for patience. If you guys can be patient with me, I'll eventually get there.
--- Jabba

You will never get there. Your behavior here is tantamount to trolling. Nobody here takes you seriously.
 
- As previously admitted, I know very little about carbon dating – and what (I think that) I know comes mostly from activity on this thread. But then, while I think that there will be a correlation between one’s C-14 knowledge and one’s ability to evaluate the claims of C-14 experts, I doubt that the correlation is very strong. That’s my basic position.
- And actually, I think that I can use a quote from davefoc (sorry, Dave) to express my take: “So it seems like just a battle of experts and one side or the other might be right. Who can tell, we're not experts?
- “But I think there is a way to sort this out. Biases provide a very strong influence on what people believe, so just because a lot of people believe something is not very good evidence that it is true. So to sort this one needs to actually make judgments about the credibility of the advocates for each side and the credibility of the evidence and arguments for both sides.”

- In other words, in order for me to ARRIVE AT A REASONABLE CONCLUSION about the validity of the carbon dating in this case, I shouldn’t need to be an expert in carbon dating – I just need to be able to effectively weigh the evidence provided by the two sides...
- And then, in order to ARGUE my conclusion effectively, I simply need to be able to PRESENT my evidence and reasoning effectively…

- That should get a big laugh (“So, why don’t you do it already?!!!”), but it IS exactly what I am TRYING to do – you guys just don’t appreciate how difficult it is to climb one branch of this exponential tree of debate to its end. Here, I am trying to climb Dinwar’s question/branch to its end while at the same time being goaded by the slings and arrows into climbing numerous other branches instead. (I wonder how many slings and arrows THIS claim will launch.)

- Trying first to think through my own perceived logic of carbon dating – before studying the specific math – I think that, basically, we’re looking for THE MEAN AGE OF THE THREADS IN THE SAMPLE. The following formula should reflect the basic idea for determining the percentage of threads 500 years old (X (the age of the alleged patch)) versus the percentage of threads 2000 years old (1-X) in the sample, in order to arrive at a mean of 700 years old.
- Using the ages of the two hypothetical origins of thread in the sample -- rather than the amount of remaining C-14 (per something) of those two origins – to arrive at the percentage of new thread in the sample needed to offset the old, and arrive at a mean of 700 years, I would use the following formula: (X*2000+(X-1)*500)/2 = 700, or X = .96.
- Using this abbreviated formula, I’d need the sample to be made up of 96% new thread…

- For some reason, the experts say that it’s not that simple…
- I’ll be back after studying what they have to say.

--- Jabba

Hi Jabba,
I think the problem with your calculation is that it assumes the loss of C14 is linear over time. The loss of C14 is exponential since the loss of C14 is proportional to the amount of C14 at any one time. That is when there is less C14 less C14 is lost. The effect of this is to make it so that the rate at which C14 is lost declines with time.

When I did my calculation I just used the data supplied by Aepervius which was:

Modern carbon 100% 1 carbon 14C per 1 trillion C so 6.0 10^11 per mole
0 AD carbon 78% 0,78 carbon 14C per 1 trillion C so ~4,7 10^11 per mole
Seemingly 1250 AD 91% 0,91 carbon 14C per 1 trillion C so ~5,5 10^11 per mole

I didn't check him on the data but my guess is that he got it from a chart that showed C14 concentrations with date. Initially when C14 testing was done people assumed that C14 concentrations with time could be calculated by assuming an exponential decline. It turned out that when methods for calibrating C14 testing were developed that the initial assumptions were wrong. The amount of C14 in the atmosphere does vary a bit with time so it is necessary to correct estimates of C14 concentrations with time based on calibration testing. As an aside, one of my favorite places is the White Mountains in California where bristlecone pines grow. Bristlecone pines were the first source of data that was used to calibrate C14 testing. Some of the living bristlecone pines are 5000 years old and these could be dated precisely by tree ring analysis. But they were even able to push that back farther because the White Mountains are so dry that there are very old dead trees that had rings that overlapped in time with living trees. Using the old trees they were able to provide a calibration scale for C14 testing that went back about 10,000 years.

I am afraid that I might not have explained exponential decay very well. You might look at the Wikipedia article and see if that doesn't make sense:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth

As an another aside, Aepervius calculated 1.44 for the amount of contaminating material to original source material required. He and I communicated outside this thread and his number is a bit more accurate than my answer which was 1.6. There was a rounding error in my calculation. When I used the C14 concentrations rounded to two places rather than one I also got the same answer. I tried to find a calculation by an expert on line and didn't find one to provide further verification that we had done the calculation correctly. I did find an expert that said the amount of contamination required was almost double so our answer is in the ball park with that.

Regardless, I think you can see that whether the answer is .96, 1.6 or 1.44 a very large amount of contamination would be required and eliminating contamination by careful cleaning seems to be part of all C14 testing. I have seen two contamination theories: Bioplastic and soot. The expert I read rejected the notion of bioplastic contamination entirely. I think the idea on the bioplastic contamination was that somehow a lot of touching had created a kind of film on the sampled area. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for something like that and as you can see it would take a whole lot of bioplastic contamination to skew the result by 1300 years or so. The idea of soot contamination seems even more remote. Even given that soot is nearly pure carbon it would still take a lot of soot to skew the result and soot is very visible. I think people would have noticed even a tiny fraction of the amount of soot required to skew the result in the sample.
 
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Jabba said:
- I just ask for patience.
It's been 58 pages and, according to you, 20 years, and someone else had to provide you with how to calculate how much contamination is necessary to give the shroud a false date. Your entire argument boils down to an argument supporting there being that much contamination, and you can't be bothered to learn how much it is. I'd say the fact that we're willing to still talk to you, even to mock you, is more patience than you've earned.
 
Hi Jabba,
I think the problem with your calculation is that it assumes the loss of C14 is linear over time. The loss of C14 is exponential since the loss of C14 is proportional to the amount of C14 at any one time. That is when there is less C14 less C14 is lost. The effect of this is to make it so that the rate at which C14 is lost declines with time.

When I did my calculation I just used the data supplied by Aepervius which was:

Modern carbon 100% 1 carbon 14C per 1 trillion C so 6.0 10^11 per mole
0 AD carbon 78% 0,78 carbon 14C per 1 trillion C so ~4,7 10^11 per mole
Seemingly 1250 AD 91% 0,91 carbon 14C per 1 trillion C so ~5,5 10^11 per mole

I didn't check him on the data but my guess is that he got it from a chart that showed C14 concentrations with date. Initially when C14 testing was done people assumed that C14 concentrations with time could be calculated by assuming an exponential decline. It turned out that when methods for calibrating C14 testing were developed that the initial assumptions were wrong. The amount of C14 in the atmosphere does vary a bit with time so it is necessary to correct estimates of C14 concentrations with time based on calibration testing. As an aside, one of my favorite places is the White Mountains in California where bristlecone pines grow. Bristlecone pines were the first source of data that was used to calibrate C14 testing. Some of the living bristlecone pines are 5000 years old and these could be dated precisely by tree ring analysis. But they were even able to push that back farther because the White Mountains are so dry that there are very old dead trees that had rings that overlapped in time with living trees. Using the old trees they were able to provide a calibration scale for C14 testing that went back about 10,000 years.

I am afraid that I might not have explained exponential decay very well. You might look at the Wikipedia article and see if that doesn't make sense:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth

As an another aside, Aepervius calculated 1.44 for the amount of contaminating material to original source material required. He and I communicated outside this thread and his number is a bit more accurate than my answer which was 1.6. There was a rounding error in my calculation. When I used the C14 concentrations rounded to two places rather than one I also got the same answer. I tried to find a calculation by an expert on line and didn't find one to provide further verification that we had done the calculation correctly. I did find an expert that said the amount of contamination required was almost double so our answer is in the ball park with that.

Regardless, I think you can see that whether the answer is .96, 1.6 or 1.44 a very large amount of contamination would be required and eliminating contamination by careful cleaning seems to be part of all C14 testing. I have seen two contamination theories: Bioplastic and soot. The expert I read rejected the notion of bioplastic contamination entirely. I think the idea on the bioplastic contamination was that somehow a lot of touching had created a kind of film on the sampled area. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for something like that and as you can see it would take a whole lot of bioplastic contamination to skew the result by 1300 years or so. The idea of soot contamination seems even more remote. Even given that soot is nearly pure carbon it would still take a lot of soot to skew the result and soot is very visible. I think people would have noticed even a tiny fraction of the amount of soot required to skew the result in the sample.

Jabba didn't talk about "contamination," he says "96% new thread," so he's still rambling on about the undetectable "by anything other than the imagination of those desperate to believe" patch.
 
Jabba said:
But then, while I think that there will be a correlation between one’s C-14 knowledge and one’s ability to evaluate the claims of C-14 experts, I doubt that the correlation is very strong. That’s my basic position.
So what you're saying is that you don't think you need to understand what people are talking about in order to critique their analysis. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid (by "stupid" I mean "willfully ignorant", by the way). If you don't know about C14 dating how CAN you critique the analysis? I'm serious--what possible criticisms can you offer?

- And actually, I think that I can use a quote from davefoc (sorry, Dave) to express my take: “So it seems like just a battle of experts and one side or the other might be right. Who can tell, we're not experts?
There's just one teansy little problem here: I actually am qualified to analyze this data. So that quote doesn't apply to me.

- In other words, in order for me to ARRIVE AT A REASONABLE CONCLUSION about the validity of the carbon dating in this case, I shouldn’t need to be an expert in carbon dating – I just need to be able to effectively weigh the evidence provided by the two sides...
True. However, you need to UNDERSTAND the data in order to evaluate it, and you've admitted to not understanding it (it was your first bullet point). So you are by your own admission incapable of effectively weighing the evidence.

- That should get a big laugh (“So, why don’t you do it already?!!!”), but it IS exactly what I am TRYING to do – you guys just don’t appreciate how difficult it is to climb one branch of this exponential tree of debate to its end.
Jabba, I do exactly that for a living. I understand precisely how hard it is. And if I was 10% as horrible as you at this task I'd be fired within a week. No one outside of an internet message board puts up with this garbage. And the stuff I work with is frequently far more complex than the shroud--at least we know what that IS, something you can't say about a good portion of paleontology and most of ichneology.

- Using the ages of the two hypothetical origins of thread in the sample -- rather than the amount of remaining C-14 (per something) of those two origins –
It's NOT that simple. Radioactive isotopes decay in a geometric pattern, asimptotically approaching 0 over time. Your equation assumes a linear decay rate, akin to a candle burning at a constant rate. And as davefoc said, you have to factor in the variations in C14 over time. And there are ways to calculate the percentage of C14 in the original samples (compare them with stable cosmogenic nucleotides, that sort of thing).

It's also telling that you're trying to simplify my question. Believe me, it's already simplified. I'm not asking you to account for the loss of N14 and carbon over time (organic mollecules aren't exactly closed systems the way, say, zircon crystals are).

But at any rate, we now have a number that we can work with--you're saying that 96% of the threads in the shroud have to be new in order for you to be right. We'll ignore the errors in calculation for the moment. Now, how do you propose we test to see if 96% of the threads were new? That's the next step. If you can't determine that they are new threads, your hypothesis fails.
 
@davefoc it is relatively approximate I used a half life 5730 year for 14C without table correction, which means if I read wiki corectely that the age is underestimated (by between 10% to 20% by 15000 year of age, but relatively speakign at the start of the cureve it is low enough that really the rounding error are much greater).

ETA : In other word I ignored this :
[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Radiocarbon_Date_Calibration_Curve.svg[/qimg]

But as you see for the date concerning us it seems to be in the 5% to 10% deviation in age. In other word due to the exponential nature our % 14C don't change much.
 
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Carbon Dating - Reweaving?

Hi Jabba,
I think the problem with your calculation is that it assumes the loss of C14 is linear over time. The loss of C14 is exponential since the loss of C14 is proportional to the amount of C14 at any one time. That is when there is less C14 less C14 is lost. The effect of this is to make it so that the rate at which C14 is lost declines with time...
- Thanks, Dave.
- I was just now studying the formula given in Wikipedia, and realized that the correlation with age wasn't linear. I had figured it was something like that, but couldn't make that specific leap without help.
- I think that you misunderstood my .96. That isn't meant to represent the quantity of C-14 left per mole of C -- it is meant to represent the percentage of contamination in the sample. In addition, I wasn't assuming modern contamination -- I was assuming contamination from a 16th century patch. I now assume that following your more sophisticated, non-linear, formula would get me close to what you or Aepervius concluded -- even figuring a 16th century patch for the contamination.
- I need to go back and re-examine what Rogers and others were claiming re the re-weaving (sorry about all those re's), but my understanding so far is that they were claiming that the patch itself was created in the 16th century -- it wasn't just the connecting re-weave, and/or the handling, that was responsible for an incorrect dating.
--- Jabba
 
Agree.

True shroud/Fake shroud, What possible difference could it make to a faith?

ETA: Unless you were not too sure about your faith.
Exactly.

- As previously admitted, I know very little about carbon dating – and what (I think that) I know comes mostly from activity on this thread. But then, while I think that there will be a correlation between one’s C-14 knowledge and one’s ability to evaluate the claims of C-14 experts, I doubt that the correlation is very strong. That’s my basic position.
- And actually, I think that I can use a quote from davefoc (sorry, Dave) to express my take: “So it seems like just a battle of experts and one side or the other might be right. Who can tell, we're not experts?
- “But I think there is a way to sort this out. Biases provide a very strong influence on what people believe, so just because a lot of people believe something is not very good evidence that it is true. So to sort this one needs to actually make judgments about the credibility of the advocates for each side and the credibility of the evidence and arguments for both sides.”
Rubbish. The basic science behind radiocarbon dating is taught in secondary school. It's quite simple. Learn.

In other words, in order for me to ARRIVE AT A REASONABLE CONCLUSION about the validity of the carbon dating in this case, I shouldn’t need to be an expert in carbon dating – I just need to be able to effectively weigh the evidence provided by the two sides...
And recognise what actually constitutes evidence. You seem unable to do that very well.

And then, in order to ARGUE my conclusion effectively, I simply need to be able to PRESENT my evidence and reasoning effectively…
Actually having some evidence helps.

That should get a big laugh (“So, why don’t you do it already?!!!”), but it IS exactly what I am TRYING to do – you guys just don’t appreciate how difficult it is to climb one branch of this exponential tree of debate to its end.
No. You dodge and evade too much for this to be likely.

Trying first to think through my own perceived logic of carbon dating – before studying the specific math – I think that, basically, we’re looking for THE MEAN AGE OF THE THREADS IN THE SAMPLE. The following formula should reflect the basic idea for determining the percentage of threads 500 years old (X (the age of the alleged patch)) versus the percentage of threads 2000 years old (1-X) in the sample, in order to arrive at a mean of 700 years old.
- Using the ages of the two hypothetical origins of thread in the sample -- rather than the amount of remaining C-14 (per something) of those two origins – to arrive at the percentage of new thread in the sample needed to offset the old, and arrive at a mean of 700 years, I would use the following formula: (X*2000+(X-1)*500)/2 = 700, or X = .96.
- Using this abbreviated formula, I’d need the sample to be made up of 96% new thread…
You have not the slightest understanding of radiocarbon dating do you? Even a half hour's actually research is too much for you.

For some reason, the experts say that it’s not that simple…
Because they actually understand the process perhaps?
 
catsmate1 said:
Rubbish. The basic science behind radiocarbon dating is taught in secondary school. It's quite simple. Learn.
I used to teach it with $1 in penneys and a plastic bin. It was always a lot of fun--particularly because every time there'd be at least one really weird result (two coins flipped when they shook the box, or 90 coins flipped, that sort of thing).

Jabba said:
- I need to go back and re-examine what Rogers and others were claiming re the re-weaving (sorry about all those re's), but my understanding so far is that they were claiming that the patch itself was created in the 16th century -- it wasn't just the connecting re-weave, and/or the handling, that was responsible for an incorrect dating.
Actually, the more I think about it, this isn't even reasonable enough to move forward with. There's a major issue that your'e not addressing.

The issue is that there'd still need to be contamination (enough to make a 16th century cloth read as though it's from the 14th century). The nature of that contamination is still a rather open question. The thing is, whether we're talking 200 years or 1,300 years there's only one type of contamination that can do this: dead carbon, meaning carbon with no C14 in it. In the modern world this is easy to come by--fossil fuels are dead carbon, for example. In the ancient world, this is a much more serious issue. Fossil fuels didn't become widely used until the Industrial Revolution. Limited burning of coal and pitch occurred, but most homes were heated with wood fires, and most light came from burning bits of the biosphere (wax candles and the like). Unless you're willing to argue that they dipped the shroud in pitch for a bit, or held it over a coal fire for a few days (both of which would leave rather obvious evidence--ie, the cloth would be black), the limited amount of fossil material burned in the Middle Ages isn't going to help explain any contamination.

Most contamination of artifacts serves to LOWER the apparent age. They get contaminated by modern carbon, which contains C14, and therefore read as younger than they are. You need to explain how dead carbon got into the shroud fibers, as well as a mechanism for the proper volume getting into it.
 
Carbon Dating - Reweaving?

Dinwar,
- I'm suggesting that the 16th century patch was a large PART of the sample, not the whole thing.
--- Jabba
 
Fair enough. So to be clear, you're no longer doubting the validity of the methods for the C14 test, correct? You agree that they handled the samples properly, dealt with contamination issues properly, etc., and that the results they got are an accurate assessment of the age of the actual sample they were given, correct? I want everyone to be on the same page here. After more than 50 pages we've finally made a tiny step of progress, and I'm not sure I have the patience to deal with back-sliding; if you're going to object to the results the teams got for the C14 dating, now's the time.
 
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