General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[TSR]

I'm not sure whether to admire or hate you for that.

"Gotta love me -- I'm the baby!"

 

[Dogzilla]

Go to your local cemetary. Walk around looking, even walking over the graves.

Now leave and come back the next day with a shovel, and start digging up some of the graves.

See which action provokes an angry response (hint: it's not gonna be the first one).

It's Stundie Monday in the holocaust denial thread. Neither Antpogo nor Robrob understand the difference between walking on the ground under which bodies are buried and walking on the bodies themselves.

 

[Charles Traynor]

Heads up to ct: the thread in FMF is active, and related posts have been moved there. That part of the thread has *not* been censored in any way so far, and should you need help finding the new thread, you have received a PM for each message of yours that has been moved.

I once again renew my advice that you read the MA for comprehension.

Thanks, I’ll check the FMF thread later.

 

[TSR]

the problem is that you don't have any evidence to contradict the other evidence which shows they were actually murdered as documented by confessions from the killers themselves, references to orders to perform the killing, physical traces consistent with the weapons used to do the killing, reports sent to HQ detailing the killings, contemporary witness statements providing more details about the killings, in addition to the missing victims themselves -- and did we mention not a speck of evidence which suggests any other fate for them.

ftfy

Oh, and this "problem" is yours and yours alone whether you care or not.

 

[Charles Traynor]

Elie Wiesel has as much bearing on the historical reality of the Holocaust as Sven Hassel has on WWII combat operations.

Public impression of the holocaust is derived from representations presented in the media. It seems like the crook Wiesel is a guest on Oprah Winfrey’s show every other week, and he is usually found within arm’s reach of US presidents during televised holocaust memorial events.

To top it off, Night (the book he probably never wrote), is mandatory reading for impressionable young school children in many US states. This monster really is the public face of holocaust hatred.

 

[000063]

...
I don't know what happened to these people but neither do you. You and I both know they got on trains and were transported to various camps. That is where we both lost track of them. Neither you nor I know what happened to them after that. We both know they are missing.

Please stop assuming everyone is on your level of ignorance.

But you believe that if they had survived, they wouldn't be missing. You also believe that if they didn't survive, they because they were murdered by the Nazis.

FTFY. You seem to have a major confusion between cause and effect here. People who are killed generally don't survive.

So because they are missing, they didn't survive and because they didn't survive, they must've been murdered.

Straw man.

The problem is that you don't have any evidence they were actually murdered.

Yes we do. Mass graves, physical evidence, testimony from the perps and survivors, records. Evidence you have largely refused to look at, much less discuss.

You just don't have clear evidence of anything else. At best, you have speculation based upon a false dichotomy.

Nope. A theory has been advanced and supported. All you have to do is demonstrate the flaws in the theory, which would require looking at that evidence you so desperately ignore, or provide and support an alternative one. All you actually do is make up some false dichotomy based on your biased misunderstanding that literally no one in the thread has proposed, and to do so in spite of multiple corrections and your own admittance of not knowing what "actually" happened. I'm not sure you've even acknowledged the people correcting you when they point out that the actual options are

1. Killed by the Nazis.
2. Anything else at all.

It's an open-ended question, and one you've been running away from for some time.

 

[TSR]

It's Stundie Monday in the holocaust denial thread. Neither Antpogo nor Robrob understand the difference between walking on the ground under which bodies are buried and walking on the bodies themselves.

I'm sure they do, the problem is that you haven't shown anyone talking about walking on the bodies themselves other than you.

Try again.

 

[Charles Traynor]

Elie Wisel why is he called a liar by the denial delusionists?

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/643360/Elie-Wiesel

If you want to know the truth about Elie Wiesel I recommend Carolyn Yeager’s, Elie Wiesel Cons the World website:

http://www.eliewieseltattoo.com/


An interesting video exposing Wiesel’s lies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-RizagVcZU

 

[Robrob]

So where did they go? I imagine Israel, the United States, Australia. I don't know that is where they went but I think those would be good places to look for them. .

So millions went to the camps and never returned but according to you, they simply moved without leaving a forwarding address? And even though you don't know/can't prove where these millions went your point is still valid?

 

[TSR]

Public impression of the holocaust is derived from representations presented in the media.

And?

It seems like the crook Wiesel is a guest on Oprah Winfrey’s show every other week, and he is usually found within arm’s reach of US presidents during televised holocaust memorial events.

It might seem so to someone who depends on Oprah to learn about history.

Why don't you try, you know, some actual historians for a change?

To top it off, Night (the book he probably never wrote),

Evidence?

is mandatory reading for impressionable young school children in many US states.

No, it's not. Certainly not in history classes.

This monster really is the public face of holocaust hatred.

And the problem with deploring the cold blooded murder of millions of unarmed and innocent civilian men, women, and children is ... ?

 

[000063]

So millions went to the camps and never returned but according to you, they simply moved without leaving a forwarding address? And even though you don't know/can't prove where these millions went your point is still valid?

He's trying for that quantum superposition thing again; when asked for evidence, he doesn't know where they went, but he's perfectly willing to advance that claim up until that point.

 

[TSR]

If you want to know the truth about Elie Wiesel

First you're going to have to explain why we should, when the topic here is the historicity of the Holocaust and your desperate need to deny the same.

I'll make a deal with you: We will all stop using Wiesel as a source for historical fact, and you actually address historical fact.

You won't see much difference in anyone elses' posts BECAUSE NONE OF US CITE WIESEL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[Dcdrac]

Public impression of the holocaust is derived from representations presented in the media. It seems like the crook Wiesel is a guest on Oprah Winfrey’s show every other week, and he is usually found within arm’s reach of US presidents during televised holocaust memorial events.

To top it off, Night (the book he probably never wrote), is mandatory reading for impressionable young school children in many US states. This monster really is the public face of holocaust hatred.

Provide some REAL evidence please for any of this

Real as in not a collection of links to kook sites

 

[Cyrix686]

"We have seventy years of excuses for why we can't look for that evidence. "

Please demonstrate Dogzilla what you mean by this statement,

"We have seventy years of excuses for why we can't look for that evidence. "

It's another lie. I'd also say generally that for someone who doesn't care about these people over the other side of the world and who doesn't know, he seems to care an awful lot. He is professing something or other through this alleged and pretended disinterest and ignorance.

 

[Border Reiver]

Public impression of the holocaust is derived from representations presented in the media. It seems like the crook Wiesel is a guest on Oprah Winfrey’s show every other week, and he is usually found within arm’s reach of US presidents during televised holocaust memorial events.

To top it off, Night (the book he probably never wrote), is mandatory reading for impressionable young school children in many US states. This monster really is the public face of holocaust hatred.

I got my impression of the Holocaust initially from a Time-Life book in my grandfather's library ( something that had been put together in the 50s, can't remember the title it's been about 40 years) and from the slightly intoxicated ramblings of a great uncle who'd been part of the liberation of Bergen Belsen (Mom wasn't too keen on a 5 year old hearing and seeing this stuff, but this was one of the few times Dad overruled her).

It then followed up with a general interest in history.

I'd never heard of either this Elie Weisel or Irene Zisblatt before logging onto this forum.

Most people get their exposure to the history of the holocaust in a history book during a class in high school during the year when they take 20th Century history (so grade 10 in my case).

The pathetic attempts of the deniers of the Holocaust to alter what happened so as to make Naziism palatable by poking holes in the works of individuals have as much chance of succeeding as denying the horrors perpetrated by Vlad Dracula, based on the fictional work of Mr. Stoker.

 

[Border Reiver]

So millions went to the camps and never returned but according to you, they simply moved without leaving a forwarding address? And even though you don't know/can't prove where these millions went your point is still valid?

Let's not forget that they managed to do so on ships that never existed either (there being accurate passenger lists for those ships that docked in every port in all those countries, none of which show anything like that number of central and east European Jews emigrating post war).

 

[Robrob]

To top it off, Night (the book he probably never wrote), is mandatory reading for impressionable young school children in many US states. This monster really is the public face of holocaust hatred.

Provide actual citation for this claim or be proven a liar.

 

[Dcdrac]

If you want to know the truth about Elie Wiesel I recommend Carolyn Yeager’s, Elie Wiesel Cons the World website:

http://www.eliewieseltattoo.com/


An interesting video exposing Wiesel’s lies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-RizagVcZU

I asked for REAL evidence not youtube links and Kook websites

What REAL evidence do you have?

 

[Dcdrac]

I got my impression of the Holocaust initially from a Time-Life book in my grandfather's library ( something that had been put together in the 50s, can't remember the title it's been about 40 years) and from the slightly intoxicated ramblings of a great uncle who'd been part of the liberation of Bergen Belsen (Mom wasn't too keen on a 5 year old hearing and seeing this stuff, but this was one of the few times Dad overruled her).

It then followed up with a general interest in history.

I'd never heard of either this Elie Weisel or Irene Zisblatt before logging onto this forum.

Most people get their exposure to the history of the holocaust in a history book during a class in high school during the year when they take 20th Century history (so grade 10 in my case).

The pathetic attempts of the deniers of the Holocaust to alter what happened so as to make Naziism palatable by poking holes in the works of individuals have as much chance of succeeding as denying the horrors perpetrated by Vlad Dracula, based on the fictional work of Mr. Stoker.

I formed my impressions of the Holocaust initially from reading history boooks written by Historians and not delusional loonies

 

[Aulus Agerius]

So where did they go? I imagine Israel, the United States, Australia. I don't know that is where they went but I think those would be good places to look for them. You imagine they went under the sandy soil of the death camps. You don't know that is where they went but if you cared about what happened to them, you would look. If you looked and found them, then you would know. If you found out you didn't know then you could start looking somewhere else, if you cared.

By the weird standard of proof you appear to be applying it is impossible to "know" any part of history for which you were not personally present. For example, do you know that a battle occurred at Hastings in 1066? You can't know because you weren't there and there's not much archeology there - no mass graves etc. Sure there are lots of mentions of the battle in chronicles and such, but those are second and third-hand or worse. Does this mean that you doubt that the Battle of Hastings happened? If you don't then why are you applying a different standard of proof to the Holocaust?

Perhaps you ought to decide on a generally applicable standard of proof and then work out which bits of history you are prepared to accept.