Justin39640
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"Should the FDNY have focused more on saving WTC7?" is begging the question. The mere proposition implies that WTC7 warranted greater priority. Gee whiz, why would a 9-11 Truther think that building was more important?
WTC7's only relevance is as the center of conspiracist fantasies about the events of the day: mainly, the "pull it" quote and the video of one side of the building collapsing all at once. From any other viewpoint, WTC7 is no more or less important than WTCs 3 through 6, or any other buildings that were damaged that day. Nobody has ever pondered whether the FDNY should have have focused more on saving WTC4. Nor will they ever.
This is just an attempt to elevate WTC7's place in the day's events. And they've kind of succeeded at it: NYCCAN's push poll from a year ago revealed that 70% of New Yorkers who can identify "the third skyscraper" name WTC7.
WTC7's only relevance is as the center of conspiracist fantasies about the events of the day: mainly, the "pull it" quote and the video of one side of the building collapsing all at once. From any other viewpoint, WTC7 is no more or less important than WTCs 3 through 6, or any other buildings that were damaged that day. Nobody has ever pondered whether the FDNY should have have focused more on saving WTC4. Nor will they ever.
This is just an attempt to elevate WTC7's place in the day's events. And they've kind of succeeded at it: NYCCAN's push poll from a year ago revealed that 70% of New Yorkers who can identify "the third skyscraper" name WTC7.
sts60
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jaydeehees and Sabretooth have pretty much hit it. The idea that WTC 7 could have been saved by moving water from the Hudson, or that FDNY should have even tried to, is just silly. Some ignoramus says FDNY just should have humped multiple stretches of large-diameter-hose many hundreds of yards in length, though debris- and survivor-cluttered streets, when several hundred firefighters and thousands of civilians were known to be missing? To bring water to an evacuated building with a broken standpipe system and no power - one that was showing unambiguous collapse indicators on a day when two much larger buildings had already collapsed?
Idiotic.
I'm not triforcharity, and I certainly don't speak for FDNY, but I am a (volunteer) firefighter and I certainly agree with Sabretooth.
Oh, by the way, if the genius who proposed that had his way, every intersection through which that hose was laid would have been blocked to vehicle traffic. That's always handy when trying to evacuate lower Manhattan while speeding relief and rescue supplies into the area.
Idiotic.
I'm not triforcharity, and I certainly don't speak for FDNY, but I am a (volunteer) firefighter and I certainly agree with Sabretooth.
Oh, by the way, if the genius who proposed that had his way, every intersection through which that hose was laid would have been blocked to vehicle traffic. That's always handy when trying to evacuate lower Manhattan while speeding relief and rescue supplies into the area.
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Justin39640
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Not to mention, no one had any idea if the attacks were over or not.
Animal
Master Poster
It is the same "genius" that in another thread said there was no basis to say the sprinkler system was compromised.
Sabretooth
No Ordinary Rabbit
Another thought: Running 500 yards of 6" line would have required pumpers stationed every 150 yards at a minimum just to maintain enough pressure.
Does the FDNY even train to draft from the Hudson? I can't imagine they do, but maybe someone else knows for sure?
The FDNY was already taxed on personnel and equipment after the collapse of 1 and 2. It would have been...well, retarded...to waste man power and equipment to even think about such a stupid operation.
The logistics just don't make sense. Expending that much effort for a vacant building is just a plain dumb idea.
ETA: Sorry sts60, I forgot you were a firefighter as well.
I believe there are one or two others besides you, tri, and I.
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jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
It is the same "genius" that in another thread said there was no basis to say the sprinkler system was compromised.
Whaaaaat?
Aside from minor indications such as the missing several storeys of the SW corner and incidentals such as an elevator car that had exited its shaft, yeah no indications at all that the sprinklers were anything other than in the same condition as it was when installed
::;:
triforcharity
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Correct. Equipment that was better suited elsewhere.
Yes. The fire boats that FDNY used, and put into service that day, could do just that. Useful to do that? No. Peeing into a fan comes to mind.
Correct. THIS is the biggest reason.
Especially one that couldn't be fought from the ground with minimal risk to firefighters.
A W Smith
Philosopher
A classic example of the idiotic 2nd guessing by truthers unless I'm mistaken Szamboti has absolutely no firefighting experience or expertise and was not anywhere near NYC let alone GZ but he presumes to know better than the veteran FD commanders with decades experience who were at the scene.
Translation "I've wondered why they weren't doing it, so imagine many firefighters who were there throughout the afternoon who did so as well"
My apologies to Szamboti if he can substantiate this
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cjnewson88
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Interesting he is no where to be seen in this thread...
MG1962
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Its really a no brainer isn't it - As soon as the towers finished collapsing what was left of the emergency services would be switching to search and rescue - buildings can be replaced.....people not so much
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Actually THAT is the crux of the matter.
TS says that the FF resources could and should have been utilised to fight the fires in WTC7, and while that is difficult and fraught with possible problems, it is technically possible given time to work out each of those problems, and it would put at greater risk, many more NYFD personnel.
Those NYFD personnel who would be required for such an operation would themselves be much more concerned about their missing 300+ brother firefighters who are somewhere in the rubble of the twin towers, not to mention 2000 other people.
The choice is a no-brainer, concentrate your resources on the search and possible rescue in WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. (people were evacuating WTC 1 & 2 through other buildings and it was by no means certain that all of 3,4,5,6 were empty when #2 came down) rather than on attempting a technically difficult and dangerous operation trying to save a, known to be empty, 47 storey structure.( only by virtue of hindsight does anyone know that there were no more than a handful of survivors )
Do we have any proof that FFs were more concerned with rescue than fighting WTC 7? Well yes we do in fact. FFs were frustrated when it was determined that WTC 7 was in danger of collapse and because of that the rescue operation was drastically curtailed due to the danger. The FFs wanted to keep searching. They knew it was dangerous, as they would have known going into WTC 7 would be dangerous, but were they clamering to fight the fires in WTC 7 or were they calling to be allowed to continue searching the rubble? Search the rubble!
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Quad4_72
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To us rational folk this is a no brainer. To the twoofers, it is a CONSPIRACY.
Quad4_72
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And again, no brainer for us. Twoofers find issue with this, but luckily there were no twoofers to make such decisions on 9/11. They probably would have sent all available personnel into WTC7 to attempt to disarm the thermite charges.
ElMondoHummus
0.25 short of being half-witted
Right. Folks, I thought this was the main reason that there were no personnel available to fight 7 World Trade's blaze: It's because everyone available was working on locating and rescuing victims trapped in the main towers collapses. Perhaps it's arguable in hindsight that personnel could have been diverted to such an operation with no loss of effectiveness to victim rescue operations, but I'd be wary of such an argument: It presumes there's a saturation point beyond which extra personnel are ineffective and that the point was exceeded. I'd want to see that substantiated before I'd accept it. And even then, would diverting to WTC 7 truly be an effective use of those hypothetical "excess" personnel?
Again, though, that's simply allowance in hindsight. As a practical matter, try telling FDNY and other personnel there that there were already enough rescuers saving trapped victims in the rubble. Emotion and pure dedication to the job would've meant that you couldn't pull rescuers away from the rubble with a rope and 10 large horses, nevermind any calculated max efficiency.
On top of that, we haven't even begun to go into detail on what dangers would be involved in mounting operations to save the Salomon building. Even if presumptions regarding the danger are ultimately proven to have been overly conservative, I'd still choose to defer to firefighting commanders on the scene and not second-guess their judgement. They had so very much on their plates during the tragedy that any such supposed errors on their part would be entirely understandable and forgivable. Monday Morning Quarterbacking of those decisions by us laymen is inappropriate, to say the least.
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
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Veteran fire fighter checking in to say that Tony's lack of understanding of fire fighting is exceded only by his lack of knowledge of how to turn lead to gold.
There were fires in buildings that could be reached from the ground, including one building which contained vast amounts of smokeless gun powder and lead. There was not enough water available to handle those and the WTC 7.
The priorities in a major fire are:
1. Preserve human life.
2. Protect property, including adjacent property threatened by the primary fire.
3. Preserve as much evidence as possible of the cause of the fire.
Putting out ther fires where people are presumed or suspected of being is part of Priority 1. Obviously, this precluded any effort in WTC 7that would interfere with work on "The Pile" or the surrounding structures.
This is not rocket science, but it still goes over Tony's head. I shall take that into consideration when evaluating his expertise compared to that of another person working in the same field with him.
There were fires in buildings that could be reached from the ground, including one building which contained vast amounts of smokeless gun powder and lead. There was not enough water available to handle those and the WTC 7.
The priorities in a major fire are:
1. Preserve human life.
2. Protect property, including adjacent property threatened by the primary fire.
3. Preserve as much evidence as possible of the cause of the fire.
Putting out ther fires where people are presumed or suspected of being is part of Priority 1. Obviously, this precluded any effort in WTC 7that would interfere with work on "The Pile" or the surrounding structures.
This is not rocket science, but it still goes over Tony's head. I shall take that into consideration when evaluating his expertise compared to that of another person working in the same field with him.
njslim
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Another thought: Running 500 yards of 6" line would have required pumpers stationed every 150 yards at a minimum just to maintain enough pressure.
Does the FDNY even train to draft from the Hudson? I can't imagine they do, but maybe someone else knows for sure?
ETA: Sorry sts60, I forgot you were a firefighter as well.
The new FDNY pumpers come equipped with 4 hard suction lengths (most
pumpers only carry two)
This is in case of similar emergency need to draft water from surrounding rivers/ocean - remember NYC sits on group of islands (Bronx excepted)
As for FF - I am also one in NJ