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Is Obesity Incurable?

mike3 said:
I'm curious about this: If it is hard to lose the weight and harder even to keep it off, is there a way for those who are not already obese to prevent becoming obese in the first place?
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That, clearly, is much easier. Just going back to a diet and activity level of the average US resident in 1970 should prevent 2/3 of people who would otherwise become obese from doing so, and average people weren't starving themselves or working out like maniacs in 1970.
 
Modified said:
That, clearly, is much easier. Just going back to a diet and activity level of the average US resident in 1970 should prevent 2/3 of people who would otherwise become obese from doing so, and average people weren't starving themselves or working out like maniacs in 1970.
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And again we confuse simple with easy. :D
 
So much of this starts in childhood, or at least starts at an age before you really know what's going on. If you've been programmed as a kid to associate food with love, friends, family, celebration, special occasions, curing bad moods, etc, then your future is kind of written in stone, it seems.

It sounds like I'm blaming parents but of course parents are just one small factor in the behaviors a kid picks up -- peers, media, etc all play a factor. And they all point toward, "Eat, eat, eat, eat, and also being fat is horrible and you should feel bad."

The forces pushing you in that unhealthy direction are mind-boggling.
 
David Wong said:
So much of this starts in childhood, or at least starts at an age before you really know what's going on. If you've been programmed as a kid to associate food with love, friends, family, celebration, special occasions, curing bad moods, etc, then your future is kind of written in stone, it seems.

It sounds like I'm blaming parents but of course parents are just one small factor in the behaviors a kid picks up -- peers, media, etc all play a factor. And they all point toward, "Eat, eat, eat, eat, and also being fat is horrible and you should feel bad."

The forces pushing you in that unhealthy direction are mind-boggling.
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So what can possibly be done about the problem?
 
Weak Kitten said:
Speaking of exercise, what is this "endorphin rush" that other people keep talking about? I've never had it, to me exercise is just a boring, painful and tedious activity that I do for my health. It certainly doesn't take my mind off of it if I am hungry, I just find myself hurting in my stomach as well as everywhere else.

Has anyone taken a look at whether different people have different reactions to exercise? I would certainly exercise more if I got the sort of rush that other people talk about!
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In my experience the endorphin rush only came after I had been exercising consistently for a few months and began to see real progress in several areas, such as losing weight, being able to exercise harder and longer. The rush of endorphins comes from a sense of achievement, not the exercise itself.
 
Horatius said:
And here's the "Everybody is the same" issue sneaking in again. Sure, there are fat sedentary people who "eat like lumberjacks". However, there are also fat people who don't eat like lumberjacks, but are still fat.

I mentioned the extremely low calorie diet I was on above. This plan had pre-measured diet shake mixes that provided 900 calories in four shakes per day. In the group I was in, there was one woman who kept gaining weight on that number of shakes. She had to cut it down to two shakes per day to lose weight. That's 450 calories per day, for those playing at home. Her metabolism was just that efficient.

Take a good look at what 450 calories of real food looks like, that ask if it's reasonable to expect her to only ever eat that much - even if it's the only way she could keep the weight off.
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I hear these stories and I can't help but be extremely, extremely skeptical. If it were truly possible to maintain an obese human body on even 900 calories a day, there would be entire civilizations or tribes with this type of efficiency, because it would be such an enormous survival advantage. There is simply no way an adult obese person can maintain pounds and pounds and pounds of fat on 900 calories a day. It's simply impossible. Energy in/energy out, the laws of thermodynamics do not change, and no human body is that "efficient." In fact, and I'll dig up a source for this, human metabolic rates do not actually differ that much from person to person, despite claims to the contrary from those struggling with their weight.
 
Doghouse Reilly said:
I hear these stories and I can't help but be extremely, extremely skeptical. If it were truly possible to maintain an obese human body on even 900 calories a day, there would be entire civilizations or tribes with this type of efficiency, because it would be such an enormous survival advantage. There is simply no way an adult obese person can maintain pounds and pounds and pounds of fat on 900 calories a day. It's simply impossible. Energy in/energy out, the laws of thermodynamics do not change, and no human body is that "efficient." In fact, and I'll dig up a source for this, human metabolic rates do not actually differ that much from person to person, despite claims to the contrary from those struggling with their weight.
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I would be interested in hearing what you find. The part that makes me skeptical is that someone who is carrying and extra hundred or so pounds is actually carrying that weight -- I can't imagine that wouldn't be counted as some sort of exercise, which would mean you'd need even more calories than normal to maintain the higher weight.
 
David Wong said:
It's much, much harder for the formerly obese, and the success rate is lower. Which makes sense, they're fighting against the body's own starvation prevention mechanism.
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Yes. Alcohol and tobacco cravings eventually go away. Food cravings never do, except in people who have had bariatric surgery. It seems that bypassing a stomach actually changes something in their brain so they don't crave food anymore.
 
David Wong said:
So much of this starts in childhood, or at least starts at an age before you really know what's going on. If you've been programmed as a kid to associate food with love, friends, family, celebration, special occasions, curing bad moods, etc, then your future is kind of written in stone, it seems.

It sounds like I'm blaming parents but of course parents are just one small factor in the behaviors a kid picks up -- peers, media, etc all play a factor. And they all point toward, "Eat, eat, eat, eat, and also being fat is horrible and you should feel bad."

The forces pushing you in that unhealthy direction are mind-boggling.
Click to expand...

Is there anything that can be done to prevent a kid from getting programmed that way? What can be done to solve this problem with society?
 
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Doghouse Reilly said:
I hear these stories and I can't help but be extremely, extremely skeptical... There is simply no way an adult obese person can maintain pounds and pounds and pounds of fat on 900 calories a day. It's simply impossible. Energy in/energy out, the laws of thermodynamics do not change... human metabolic rates do not actually differ that much from person to person, despite claims to the contrary from those struggling with their weight.
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marplots said:
someone who is carrying and extra hundred or so pounds is actually carrying that weight -- I can't imagine that wouldn't be counted as some sort of exercise, which would mean you'd need even more calories than normal to maintain the higher weight.
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It's been confirmed multiple times that obese people report eating significantly less than they actually eat.
 
Doghouse Reilly said:
I hear these stories and I can't help but be extremely, extremely skeptical. If it were truly possible to maintain an obese human body on even 900 calories a day, there would be entire civilizations or tribes with this type of efficiency, because it would be such an enormous survival advantage. There is simply no way an adult obese person can maintain pounds and pounds and pounds of fat on 900 calories a day. It's simply impossible. Energy in/energy out, the laws of thermodynamics do not change, and no human body is that "efficient." In fact, and I'll dig up a source for this, human metabolic rates do not actually differ that much from person to person, despite claims to the contrary from those struggling with their weight.
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That person is certainly an outlier, but she does exist. Did you see the link I posted above to the research summary by the doctor who was running this program? He's found distinct genetic differences between groups of people who demonstrate different levels of weight loss while on the same program. While some people might cheat, it seems unlikely that the cheaters just all happened to have the same genetic markers.

The thing with calories in vs. calories out is, they are approximations all the way along. Food had approximately X calories, that the average person will digest to produce Y calories, and expend Z calories doing so much exercise. But X, Y, and Z are ranges for real people. Get someone who happens to be in the outliers of X, Y, and Z, and they can show a significantly different weight gain and loss characteristic that the average.

Another woman I met had a duodenal switch operation, during which they actually measure your small intestine, in order to determine how much to bypass. She had a small intestine about 50% longer than average. Tell me that has little effect on how thoroughly she digested her food.
 
Horatius said:
She had a small intestine about 50% longer than average. Tell me that has little effect on how thoroughly she digested her food.
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If average intestine length is enough to completely digest your food, then 50% longer has little effect on how thoroughly she digested her food.
 
David Wong said:
So much of this starts in childhood, or at least starts at an age before you really know what's going on. If you've been programmed as a kid to associate food with love, friends, family, celebration, special occasions, curing bad moods, etc, then your future is kind of written in stone, it seems.

It sounds like I'm blaming parents but of course parents are just one small factor in the behaviors a kid picks up -- peers, media, etc all play a factor. And they all point toward, "Eat, eat, eat, eat, and also being fat is horrible and you should feel bad."

The forces pushing you in that unhealthy direction are mind-boggling.
Click to expand...

There is a "look at them they are freaks" show in the UK called Supersized vs. Superskinny where a very skinny person and an obese person swap diets for a brief period of time. The show is artificial, not least because they have selected the participants so they presumably fit some kind of profile. The consistent things that come up each time are:

  • The participants don't understand how extreme their diets are until they see someone else eating them
  • The Superskinny people can quickly "learn" to eat more, the Supersized people adapt to eating much less
  • There is often a trigger to their extreme eating behaviour. They seem to select the participants so that the same trigger has had opposite effects
  • The people who have been most sucessful in addressing their eating issues are those who have been able to address the emotional aspects most effectively

It IS artificial is IS entertainment but it does illustrate that it's more complicated than just telling someone to eat less/more and/or exercise less/more.
 
Horatius said:
The thing with calories in vs. calories out is, they are approximations all the way along. Food had approximately X calories, that the average person will digest to produce Y calories, and expend Z calories doing so much exercise. But X, Y, and Z are ranges for real people. Get someone who happens to be in the outliers of X, Y, and Z, and they can show a significantly different weight gain and loss characteristic that the average.
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The X in that should be randomly distributed and not dependent on the person. But speaking of outliers, here's the guy who hasn't eaten anything in 74 years: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/55795-man-who-lives-air-undergoes-defence-tests.html

He isn't obese though.
 
David Wong said:
So much of this starts in childhood, or at least starts at an age before you really know what's going on. If you've been programmed as a kid to associate food with love, friends, family, celebration, special occasions, curing bad moods, etc, then your future is kind of written in stone, it seems.

It sounds like I'm blaming parents but of course parents are just one small factor in the behaviors a kid picks up -- peers, media, etc all play a factor. And they all point toward, "Eat, eat, eat, eat, and also being fat is horrible and you should feel bad."

The forces pushing you in that unhealthy direction are mind-boggling.
Click to expand...


I think I agree with this. Many children are taught to see food as a reward, a gift, a proof of love and belonging. I can see that directly leading to serious weight issues if they grow up stuffing food in their mouths everytime they have either a good day or a bad one. :(


Is there anything that can be done to prevent a kid from getting programmed that way? What can be done to solve this problem with society?
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When I grew up, kids were shooed out the door the moment they woke up for "fresh air and sunshine". I remember a typical weekend day meant eating a bowl of cereal, then rushing out the door and staying lost 'til I was called for dinner. I spent my days playing with my dog, riding my bicycle, playing ball in the street, and building backyard forts for miniature wargames with the boys in the neighborhood.

Now, parents spend their weekends in mortal terror of letting youngsters out of their sight. They keep 'em indoors watching tv, playing board games, or texting all day long, and everytime they get bored they wander into the kitchen for a snack, and never, ever miss a meal. The fear of pedophiles, kidnappers, bullies, rabies from dog bites and even social services makes the parents err on the cautious side and if a kid participates in any sports or activities at all they are structured group events.

I live just a few blocks from one of the same grade schools I attended as a child. When I was a student there the playground was full on the weekends. Kids played basketball, raced on the ballfield, hung upside down on the monkey bars for hours.

Now, I drive by there and the gate is locked and the grounds are deserted. I suppose the school is afraid of lawsuits if an unattended kid gets hurt, and I understand that. But I also believe that lock is a huge factor is the number of kids that are 20 pounds or more overweight. They just no longer have the lifestyle that makes a kid become completely lost in the joy of climbing a 30' tree or or riding a bike nine times around the block or getting into a snowball fight with a bunch of semi-strangers from five blocks away.

It's just too well understood they will have a sit-down breakfast, and be home for lunch, and afternoon snacks and back again for dinner. They will be supervised every minute (and what adult wants to stand there and wait while a kid rides around the block nine times?) and called on the phone every two minutes if they wander around the corner. If they ever leave the house at all.
 
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