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On Consciousness

Is consciousness physical or metaphysical?


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Yes. For dramatic effect.

Interesting, so you do not have a problem with qualia then?

'Solve' consciousness, or explain it?

Solve it. When consciousness is finally understood in terms of physical processes (I find it hard at this point to countenance non-physical models) it will be solved. The solution may very well look quite arbitrary at first. After succeeding generations the arbitrariness will go away and it will just seem like it must have been that way.

But you seem to miss the point - the quote was 'strict identity' - i.e. the mental states are the physical states; no mapping. Mapping means interpretation - which leads you into a recursive Cartesian theatre (wasn't there a video posted here recently that covered this?). This is why messing with the physical states by flooding the brain with chemical messifiers is messing with your experience, messing with you. Been there, enjoyed that :)

Mental states means perception. Read Piggy's explanation of the way to go beyond Cartesian Theatre while also not negating the existence of sensation as the statements such as "mental states are the physical states" do. There is no you so there is no theatre to consider because there is no one in the theatre to begin with. Therefore you do not need to worry about recursive issues as there is no starting point to recurs from.

As for mapping, yes. That is exactly what needs to be done. Mapping does not necessarily have to do with interpretation, it might simply have to do with how a physical state relates to a mental state. There is no circuitry involved here because it would be a rule of the universe. Take for instance CEMI. If the EM field inside a Faraday Cage has a form X, then a sensation field Y will be created is what we figure out. There exists no a priori reason to expect that this is not possible (and it seems the evidence is starting to lean in that direction given the video link I gave).

Piggy, what is the solution to epiphenomenalism? You have been most helpful to me on the Cartesian Theatre front, I wonder if you have any thoughts on that matter as well.
 
So tell me, why are the comp.lits on this forum so unwilling to cite actual brain science?

Why do they crash every single thread on this forum about consciousness with talk of AI and conscious machines and p-zombies and robots, while openly resisting attempts to steer the discussion toward the current studies of how the brain does consciousness?

Why do they insist that leading scientists in the field are "wrong"?

I have no idea myself. I think perhaps it is cultural bias? There is also the possibility that they are not smart enough in a Theory of Mind kind of sense to understand anything other than certain concepts like programming and such (we used to have a joke when I was getting a BS in Physics degree that if you were not smart enough to be a Physicist you would be an Electrical Engineer or Mechanical Engineer, and failing that a Computer Science Major; we did not talk about Mathematicians though because they were pretty much all scary smart, especially the Double Math / Phys students)?

For instance, how could you be expected to be able to teach Calculus to someone who is Autistic? I am hesitant to think they are p-zombies, because I find the idea of such a being existing in reality patently absurd. Therefore if they are smart enough (Belz...) it is for cultural reasons, but if they are not smart enough (PixyMisa), you just have to shrug your shoulders and move on.

That is my best guess at least.
 
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Zeuzzz, I am a bit disappointed you did not comment on the video link I gave.

I don't want to start a thread on drugs (got infracted before) so I dont know what to do. The rules get very vague when it comes to drugs.

Thanks for the link too, but already seen it :p Drugs forum has a huge archive. And yeah, everyone has endocannabinoids to degree. Fascinating new area of research in how our bodies consciousness produces consciousness altering chemicals like this. There are many more that are not even cannabinoids that have been found now. DMT is also endogenous.

CBD cannabinoids are pretty fun but you will not find any sort of breakthrough consciousness experience with them, most likely. Its a start though. All synthetic chems that bind CB1 and/or CB2 receptors, produce behavioral effects similar to endocannabinoids 2-AG or AEA.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1361971-overview

Monoamine alkaloids such as tryptamines seem to be the ones that enable some sort of connection and similarity between subjective effects when used at large doses. And a lot of these are also chemicals our brains produce, for reasons we currently dont really understand.

Check out what steve jobs last words were ;)
 
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There is your problem again.
Assuming that logic is anything other than a human invention.


What I wonder is what is the significance of the fact that our consciousness has the capacity to assert itself within patterns described by words such as coherence, logic, rationality, meaning

At their most authentic, it would be hard to conclude that they are not representative of some aspect of what creates them (whatever that is). It may be so that we created logic, but how? Out of what? Why logic of this variety, and not some other (higher, or lower order)

Dear Pixy Misa

There is nothing wrong with logic.
The question is whether it means anything or not.
On this I am with Bertrand Russell.

And the reason is simply because being meaningless is a very powerful tool.

But only one tool.


Math math math. What explains it (or anything, for that matter)??? I asked Pixy earlier whether reality / the universe would be any different if math did not exist (he didn't answer). A very hypothetical question, but I wonder how it could be answered?

Re: your Russell quote…gotta like Russel. Crusty old bugger (even when he was young [the weight of the world lies heavy upon the genius I suppose]…maybe he should have taken up dancing like Nietzsche). One of my favorites is this rosy picture of our predicament:

Brief and powerless is man’s life; on him and all his race the slow sure doom falls pitiless and dark. Blind to good and evil, reckless of destruction, omnipotent matter rolls on its relentless way.

Am curious about your conclusion…” being meaningless is a very powerful tool “. Could you tease that out a bit. Meaningless is what sense? What version of meaninglessness are you referring to?
 
Math math math. What explains it (or anything, for that matter)??? I asked Pixy earlier whether reality / the universe would be any different if math did not exist (he didn't answer). A very hypothetical question, but I wonder how it could be answered?
Tell me what the question means, and I will answer.
 
Tell me what the question means, and I will answer.


It means how does a pure abstraction such as mathematics have the ability to so precisely map onto something that presumably isn’t (an abstraction…reality / the universe). As Russell pointed out:

Thus mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true.

…and yet, the conceptual unrealities of math form the foundation of the understanding that describes our models of the universe. How is math created? What is the direct relationship between mathematics and the universe in which it exists? The only place mathematics currently occurs (that we know of) is within human consciousness. How / why is mathematics intelligible to human consciousness? Are there answers to these questions?
 
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It means how does a pure abstraction such as mathematics have the ability to so precisely map onto something that presumably isn’t (an abstraction…reality / the universe).
What does that mean? How could mathematics not, in part, map onto reality? Don't forget that there is an infinite amount of mathematics that doesn't map onto reality.

How is math created?
What does that mean?

What is the direct relationship between mathematics and the universe in which it exists?
What does that mean?

The only place mathematics currently occurs (that we know of) is within human consciousness.
No.
 
What I wonder is what is the significance of the fact that our consciousness has the capacity to assert itself within patterns described by words such as coherence, logic, rationality, meaning

The significance is that our consciousness if sufficiently complex to have this capability.

At their most authentic, it would be hard to conclude that they are not representative of some aspect of what creates them (whatever that is).

They are ultimately a property of the universe.

It may be so that we created logic, but how? Out of what? Why logic of this variety, and not some other (higher, or lower order)

We did not create logic. We discovered it. The order of the logic we discover is as high as the complexity of our minds permit.

Math math math. What explains it (or anything, for that matter)??? I asked Pixy earlier whether reality / the universe would be any different if math did not exist (he didn't answer). A very hypothetical question, but I wonder how it could be answered?

Since math is a property of this universe, a universe without it would be different.

Hans
 
I don't want to start a thread on drugs (got infracted before) so I dont know what to do. The rules get very vague when it comes to drugs.

Thanks for the link too, but already seen it :p Drugs forum has a huge archive. And yeah, everyone has endocannabinoids to degree. Fascinating new area of research in how our bodies consciousness produces consciousness altering chemicals like this. There are many more that are not even cannabinoids that have been found now. DMT is also endogenous.

CBD cannabinoids are pretty fun but you will not find any sort of breakthrough consciousness experience with them, most likely. Its a start though. All synthetic chems that bind CB1 and/or CB2 receptors, produce behavioral effects similar to endocannabinoids 2-AG or AEA.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1361971-overview

Monoamine alkaloids such as tryptamines seem to be the ones that enable some sort of connection and similarity between subjective effects when used at large doses. And a lot of these are also chemicals our brains produce, for reasons we currently dont really understand.

Check out what steve jobs last words were ;)

Oh wow, oh wow, oh wow!
 
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Call me a classicist if you wish, but I find that old stuff, like modus ponens and modus tolens helpful in navigating the macroscopic environment in which I dwell, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-3VxOqHI-4

Oh, this takes me back. I have a book on Logic by Lewis Carroll, the guy that wrote "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland". He also happened to be a Mathematician, possible pederast of a girl named Alice, Anglican Deacon and Photographer (or so I am informed by the Great Wiki Wiki in the Sky).

Actually, Charles Lutwidge Dodgson was his real name, Lewis Carroll being his pseudonym. The book I have of his on logic is a very interesting read. It is almost plodding, methodically creating higher level logic concepts so that I had to take a break after about the 15th page when first reading it. Interesting reading though. I definitely endorse it, if I could remember it's name.

Oh well. Yes, always fun to bring up Latin Terms. I think in equations though, can't help it. Here is a synopsis for everyone else in case they are interested in what is involved in Modus Ponens and Modus Tollens.

Modus Ponens

(P -> Q, Q) /\ P

Modus Tollens

(P -> Q, !Q) /\ !P

Pretty simple really. I hope the symbols are self-evident enough.

/\ means 'replace'
-> means implies.
(P,Q) means P and Q.
[P,Q] means P or Q. // for completeness
!P means not P.
P and Q are two prepositions, statements that are considered either true or false.

If P and Q are considered as per Fuzzy Logic things can get more interesting perhaps. One of the ideas behind Fuzzy Logic is that base 2 arithmetic called in mathematical terms Z_2 is all you need for classical logic, but perhaps it would be interesting to extend this idea by generalizing the elements to be real and between the range of 0 and 1. That is what the inventors of Fuzzy Logic did. {Huh, just had a weird idea, can there be Fuzzy Quantum Logic? Odd idea I guess.}

We know that for Z_2 the AND logic function is a mapping of the following kind:

AND: Z_2 x Z_2 -> Z_2.

The function is very simply expressed as

AND(x, y) = xy.

If, for instance, you make a logic table of the above you get

x y AND(x,y)
0 0 0
0 1 0
1 0 0
1 1 1

which is correct. Doing the same for real numbers in the range of 0 to 1 inclusive makes sense

therefore. Let us define the set I as follows,

I = {i: 0 <= i <= 1}.

The Fuzzy AND, let's call it FAND, then has the mapping definition

FAND: I x I -> I.

(I am making up this FAND, FOR...etc. business as my own notation).

First off FNOT. This function is most easily defined in first trying to generalize ! as

FNOT: I -> I,

FNOT(x) = 1 - x.

The Fuzzy OR is FOR and all the rest follow suit. But now that FAND is defined how to find FOR? We know from First Order Predicate Logic (1OPL) that

!(P,Q) = [!P,!Q].

This would mean that

FNOT(FAND(x,y)) = 1 - xy = FOR(1-x, 1-y)

The solution for FOR is therefore

FOR(x,y) = 1 - (1-x)(1-y).

There appears to me to be some further generality in formulation allowed if one also considers that the functions FAND and FNOT probably only need to follow some rules so that consistency between 1OPL and Fuzzy Logic. This consistency requirment is that when a fuzzy predicate is considered that is only ever 0 or 1 then the two logics become equivalent. I will have to think about that to give any answer how that could possibly work.

Some time ago there was a nice Scientific American Journal on Fuzzy Logic. Included in it was how Fuzzy Logic could be made to be related to fractals through the use of feedback. Imagine you have a fuzzy predicate with value x belongs to I.

Classically we know that (P,!P) = 0. In terms of Fuzzy Logic however it is possible to have

FAND(x, FNOT(x)) != 0, for some x.

The reason why is simple.

FAND(x, FNOT(x)) = x(1-x).

Let 0 < x < 1, then 0 < 1 - x < 1. Finally, since both of the previous set of inequalities is true,

0 < x(1-x) < 1.

The function

f(x) = x(1-x)

can then be generalized so that the domain set is from the complex numbers. Define C to be

C = {z: |z| < 1 and z belongs to Z}, Z = "complex numbers".

We could then have f be redefined so that

f: Z -> Z,

f(z) = z(1-z).

You can start at a point in the Argand Plane and then iterate f over and over again until you see what the orbit thus created is attracted to. Perhaps just look at a series of values

|z|, |f(z)|, |f(f(z))|, etc.

where |z| = |a + ib| = a^2 + b^2, the modulas squared of the complex number z.

I am not sure if I remember correctly but I think the series above will converge on either 0 or 1. You can then use this fact to create a computer program that gives you a pretty picture of black and white shapes inside the unit circle of the Argand Plane. I do not recall from the article or from memory if there is much beyond it than that. You can change up the formula of the function f(z) based on other fuzzy functions and see how that turns out as well, if that is your sort of thing.

It is hard to explain Quantum Computing in a few paragraphs. If you know Linear Algebra well enough, then it should at least be possible to give a short overview of some of the highpoints. Consider a complex vector space Z x ... "Cartesian Product n-times" x Z = Z^n {n can be infinite}.

Let ? mean "belongs to".

Two vectors |U>, |V> ? Z^n will have an inner product defined as so

<U|V>

It is possible to think of the inner product in a completely abstract way (part of the point of using Dirac Bracket Notation), but fot those who want a concrete representation consider |V> as an n x 1 matrix (column vector with complex components), and <U| as the complex conjugate of the transpose, which is also known as the adjoint, of |U>, which is a 1 x n matrix (row vector with complex components).

There are two things you do in QM. You, so it is called, collapse the wave-function {I do not like the fuziness in thinking this inspires in people, there is no collapsing, there is just a series of identical tyoe measurements being done to give you statistics whith which you compare to experiment for confirmation of theory with experiment, that is what is really happaning}, or you let it evolve unitarily.

Unitary Operators are what you need to know to understand Quantum Computing (or, at least a fair portion of the literature on the subject). The point is that the vector space we are considering restricts the vectors to the set

<V|V> = 1.

Such vectors are called wave-vectors. A wave-function is just a wave-vector with infinitely dense components, one for each point in space in which the wave-function is defined. If we consider linear superposition of vectors |V_n> that form a basis for the vector space (Hilbert Space), then one can have

|Psi> = \sum_{n} Psi_n |V_n>

Each of the |V_n> is of unit length

<V_n|V_n> = 1.

Therefore since |Psi> must also be of unit length (the sum of all probabilities must sum to 1),

<Psi|Psi> = \sum_{n} |Psi_n|^2 = 1.

If we are in the Schroedinger Picture the wavefunctions evolve over time according to the equation

|Psi(t)> = e^(-iHt/hbar) |Psi(0)>.

H in the above is the Hamiltonian Operator. The point is that the wavefunction can be changed over time according to the equation above. Part of the definition of the Hamiltonian is the Potential Operator.

H = T + V

T being the kinetic energy operator and V the potential energy operator. We have control over V, so we can control what H is over time (do not worry, do it in steps and then you will not have to worry about seperation of variables to get to the Time Independent Schroedinger Wave Equation needed for formulating the Quantum Evolution Equation in the Schroedinger Picture given above for |Psi(t)>).

So, of course, e^(-iHt/hbar) is a Unitary Operator. Remember that a unitary operator U is one in which

In Quantum Computing one often considers qubits. The simplest example of a qubit is a spin up or spin down electron. Spin is a very important part of our universe it seems (you can not understand anything of the Standard Model for instance if you do not understand spin, let alone isospin and so on).

So the Hilbert Space of electron spin is a two dimensional complex vector space. When you make a measurement though you only ever have one spin or the other. The probability of having spin up |+> for instance if the wave-vector is |V> is

P_V(+) = |<+|V>|^2.

The same works for spin down,

P_V(-) = |<-|V>|^2.

I guess I could go into other topics related to Quantum Computing (some of the algorithms perhaps), but this post is already too long. I guess I should go sit down with a pad and paper and try and figure out if Fuzzy Quantum Logic could make any sense or not.

This has nothing to do with consciousness per se, but I felt like writing some about these topics on this forum since there was some peripheral mention of these subjects.
 
I don't want to start a thread on drugs (got infracted before) so I dont know what to do. The rules get very vague when it comes to drugs.

Thanks for the link too, but already seen it :p

Oh, well, I think you are safe talking about drug effects as per consciousness on the consciousness forum. I mean, how can one not, dopamine, norepinephron, etc. etc. Each one is important to brain function so, why not talk about it? On the other hand if you start giving chemical synthesis instructions for DMT I think you might get banned.

You did not technically answer what you thought of the video though ;)
 
You know what is so weird about tryptamines is that it is a cyclohexane and cyclopentane ring of carbon atoms with various other substituents on each ring in a few key places. Why does that particular chemical structure seem to have such an astounding affect on consciousness? You know what I mean Zeuzzz? It is pretty crazy.
 
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I've already shown that this is false, and explained in detail how we know it is false. So, no.
Yes I understand your entire explanation of reality and its mathematical consistency etc. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us anything about existence, ie what exists, why anything exists, what it is that exists, or anything to do with the many questions relating to our understanding of reality and how this relates to what exists.

Your entire philosophy is little more than a monkey staring into its own naval, sitting in a pea green boat with no sail or rudder, adrift in the great unknown.


We're talking about logic here. If you are working with different principles of logic to the rest of us, I can't help you at all.
What has logic to do with the assumptions we make? Assumptions are positions adopted in the absence of truth or knowledge to adopt a firmer position.
 
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Yes I understand your entire explanation of reality and its mathematical consistency etc. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us anything about existence, ie what exists, why anything exists, what it is that exists, or anything to do with the many questions relating to our understanding of reality and how this relates to what exists.
If you tell me what those questions mean, I will answer them.

What has logic to do with the assumptions we make?
I think you've identified your problem.
 
Mental states means perception. Read Piggy's explanation of the way to go beyond Cartesian Theatre while also not negating the existence of sensation as the statements such as "mental states are the physical states" do.
Mental processes are physical processes. It is, after all, impossible for them to be anything else, because there isn't anything else.
 
Interesting, so you do not have a problem with qualia then?
In the same way I don't have a problem with free will. They are both used either as flags of dualist irrationality, or as convenient and careless abstractions that paper over ignorance of underlying mechanisms & processes.

Mental states means perception. Read Piggy's explanation of the way to go beyond Cartesian Theatre while also not negating the existence of sensation as the statements such as "mental states are the physical states" do.
The existence of sensation isn't negated by that statement, but reinforced - sensations are changing mental states which are changing physical states. In terms of the active brain, talk of mental states is just relabeling physical states.

There is no you so there is no theatre to consider because there is no one in the theatre to begin with. Therefore you do not need to worry about recursive issues as there is no starting point to recurs from.
Do you really think there's no you? who is it that thinks that if not you? Being you doesn't necessitate a Cartesian theatre, you just need to accept that your brain activity is you.

As for mapping, yes. That is exactly what needs to be done. Mapping does not necessarily have to do with interpretation, it might simply have to do with how a physical state relates to a mental state.
There are only physical states. The only mapping involved is between physical states, involving wetware 'processing'.

There is no circuitry involved here because it would be a rule of the universe.
I have no idea what you mean; what circuitry? what rule?

Take for instance CEMI. If the EM field inside a Faraday Cage has a form X, then a sensation field Y will be created is what we figure out. There exists no a priori reason to expect that this is not possible.
Why introduce an unevidenced additional entity (especially a 'sensation field' :boggled:) when there is no reason to suppose it is necessary?
 
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Yes I understand your entire explanation of reality and its mathematical consistency etc. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us anything about existence, ie what exists, why anything exists, what it is that exists, or anything to do with the many questions relating to our understanding of reality and how this relates to what exists.

And that is why it, the scientific model is so effective at doing things, it is about behaviors, not about meaning.
 
Since math is a property of this universe, a universe without it would be different.
I don't see how it would make sense. Even an empty universe (if such a thing is itself possible) would have mathematical and logical attributes.
 
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