German court bans circumcision of young boys

richardm said:
I find it easier to believe that the circumcisions would still be done by a mohel, and that a sympathetic GP would simply turn a blind eye. It is not something that is as easily observed as a dog's tail, after all.
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And then, one day, one of the children where they turned a blind eye is submitted to hospital, or moves, or needs to see a specialist, or has some other reason to be seeing a doctor who does care and who does inform the authorities. And suddenly, they will have to explain how they never noticed ...
 
The mistake that was made with dogs' tails was not doing what was done when docking of horses was banned. Every time a horse tail had to be amputated for a medical reson, the vet had to write a certificate explaining why he did it, and sign it, and that stayed with the horse for the rest of its life.

Now, there is still a bit of abuse going on in England, because of the "working dogs" thing. Much less so in Scotland, because there is no exemption for working dogs. One more time where saying "the UK" does this or that is wrong. England is not the UK.

Yet.

Rolfe.
 
richardm said:
I find it easier to believe that the circumcisions would still be done by a mohel, and that a sympathetic GP would simply turn a blind eye. It is not something that is as easily observed as a dog's tail, after all.
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And its pretty hard to see if one gave a narcotics prescription for a valid or invalid reason, yet doctors , by and large still follow the guidelines of the job when doing so. And trust me, people can get rather irate when they want to get high.

Sure there may be a few, but once a few start getting caught, there will be significantly less. And a someone said earlier, once a giant rash of conditions requiring circumcision the norm ( remember, medical records are looked in to from time to time, especially when trends emerge.) it will be rather obvious what is going on.

Also a very easy way to minimize this even further would be to require a second opinion in any circumcision case. One big piece of knowledge in the medical field is it might be easy to get one person to do something sketchy , but it is exponentially harder to get 2 to agree, especially when steps are taken to ensure person A and person B do not have similar interests in mind.

And remember, all it is going to take for the Mohel to be caught is one complication, one infection, one minor thing, that will require a real doctor. This might not happen in every case, but it is going to happen eventually and put the person in jail when it does. There will only be so many willing to take the chance, and their numbers will continually dwindle until the rest smarten up, or there are simply no more left that are willing to take the risk.
 
sadhatter said:
And remember, all it is going to take for the Mohel to be caught is one complication, one infection, one minor thing, that will require a real doctor. This might not happen in every case, but it is going to happen eventually and put the person in jail when it does. There will only be so many willing to take the chance, and their numbers will continually dwindle until the rest smarten up, or there are simply no more left that are willing to take the risk.
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... and it will also only take one shower after a swimming or PE lesson for everyone to see, I guess, and then just one little kid to say something to someone.
 
sadhatter said:
And a someone said earlier, once a giant rash of conditions requiring circumcision the norm ( remember, medical records are looked in to from time to time, especially when trends emerge.) it will be rather obvious what is going on.
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Rasmus said:
... and it will also only take one shower after a swimming or PE lesson for everyone to see, I guess, and then just one little kid to say something to someone.
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I suppose a lot depends on whether the authorities are going to diligently pursue parents who claim that the procedure was done out-of-country, then. Or who actually have it done out-of-country.

I don't think the practice will be so easy to stamp out as simply passing a law against it, much as I'd like to see it dead and buried.
 
richardm said:
I suppose a lot depends on whether the authorities are going to diligently pursue parents who claim that the procedure was done out-of-country, then. Or who actually have it done out-of-country.

I don't think the practice will be so easy to stamp out as simply passing a law against it, much as I'd like to see it dead and buried.
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No, but it is a necessary first step.

Laws tend to not stop all crimes, but unless we have the laws, there's nothing we can do about it at all.
 
Rasmus said:
No, but it is a necessary first step.

Laws tend to not stop all crimes, but unless we have the laws, there's nothing we can do about it at all.
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Agreed.

Not only does this make it legally difficult, but also economically difficult to mutilate babies. It will cost significantly more for Cologne residents to do this than it does now, due to travel costs. Yay, another deterrent.
 
Rasmus said:
No, but it is a necessary first step.

Laws tend to not stop all crimes, but unless we have the laws, there's nothing we can do about it at all.
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I also agree. I don't expect this to stand very long. Either there will be some ruling higher up (European Court) or some legislative action. I'd like to hear the thoughts of someone familiar with the German legal process on what we might expect next though.

Whatever it ends up being though, the discussions and chatter that this action has generated are the real benefit. Few in the US, for example, know that non-therapeutic (secular) circumcision is a relatively rare outside of the US and just getting that information out is helpful. Interestingly, the Dutch Medical Association is holding a symposium on this matter this week. It's focused on the questions addressed by this ruling.
 
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jdp said:
I also agree. I don't expect this to stand very long. Either there will be some ruling higher up (European Court) or some legislative action. I'd like to hear the thoughts of someone familiar with the German legal process on what we might expect next though.
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From what I read:

The accused doctor was not found guilty - the reasoning being that even though the procedure was found to be a violating of the child's rights, the doctor could not have known this.

The prosecution could appeal - but that is unlikely, because the reasoning is legal and sound. It is nearly impossible that a higher court would convict the doctor.

Nothing will happen now.

Eventually, some other boy will be hurt eventually, and then someone else will find themselves in court. Possibly, another doctor. Or the parents of that child.

Then it would be possible to find them guilty, because now they'd have a chance to know what the first ruling was. In the case of a doctor it might be considered his due diligence to know, even.

The next court can decide either way, really - it is not bound by the verdict of the regional court that made the first ruling. So, it will take some other court to reach the same verdict, and then a chain of appeals that might go up to the European Court of Human Rights at the highest instance.

Whatever it ends up being though, the discussions and chatter that this action has generated are the real benefit. Few in the US, for example, know that non-therapeutic (secular) circumcision is a relatively rare outside of the US and just getting that information out is helpful. Interestingly, the Dutch Medical Association is holding a symposium on this matter this week. It's focused on the questions addressed by this ruling.
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As always, it will take a while for things to change. Some odd 15 years ago, gay marriage was virtually unheard of as a real thing. Now, countries are slowly adopting it and more and more those opposing it find themselves in the minority.

This is going to be the same thing, and hopefully, it'll be a bit quicker.
 
Dave Rogers said:
Because if it was known as MGM, people would say, "Oh, that sort of thing only happens in the movies."

Dave
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To some of us, that's actually true..

I've met many young girls who thought some sort of lubrication was required for boys to masturbate, because it's often referred to in American movies. They're surprised that this doesn't apply to Norwegian boys, and that they can just grab it and have their fun without any form of preparation.. :)
 
Rasmus said:
From what I read:

The accused doctor was not found guilty - the reasoning being that even though the procedure was found to be a violating of the child's rights, the doctor could not have known this.

The prosecution could appeal - but that is unlikely, because the reasoning is legal and sound. It is nearly impossible that a higher court would convict the doctor.

Nothing will happen now.
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You're probably right, nothing will happen in the courts. I wouldn't be surprised though if there was some preemptory legislative action started by religious lobbies. I hope that it would go nowhere like similar actions in Norway and Finland.
 
Ryokan said:
To some of us, that's actually true..

I've met many young girls who thought some sort of lubrication was required for boys to masturbate, because it's often referred to in American movies. They're surprised that this doesn't apply to Norwegian boys, and that they can just grab it and have their fun without any form of preparation.. :)
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So...how's the weather there this time of year?
 
Ryokan said:
To some of us, that's actually true..

I've met many young girls who thought some sort of lubrication was required for boys to masturbate, because it's often referred to in American movies. They're surprised that this doesn't apply to Norwegian boys, and that they can just grab it and have their fun without any form of preparation.. :)
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By 'lubrication' do you mean anything but a bit of saliva?
 
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