General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Nessie]

Sorry for being obscure. In addition to the comments from TSR and Bluespaceoddity, I meant that you've mentioned concerns about non-specialist, popular information about the Holocaust and some errors in this material. I was trying to ask you if this is the extent of your concern with gaps and inaccuracies - or does your concern extend to scholarly treatment of the Holocaust? In other words, thinking of the body of work which scholars have done, as it has been revised and updated, do you have concerns about issues like "one name, with proof," Hitler's order, and others? Concerns that historians are inaccurate?

No I do not think the historians are inaccurate and revisions have made the history even more precise about what happened. I am playing slightly with semantics here as I am in effect saying I do not think the historians were wrong, but I think they are less wrong now than before, but hopefully you follow what I mean.

 

[uke2se]

Uke2se, I'm sorry to say it but I believe you are a bit too aggressive and dismissive at this point.

What can I say? I see what could easily be a denier concern trolling us, so I release the hounds.

 

[Nessie]

Sorry, but somebody who presumably works for a herritage site commissions a plaque with a reasonable estimate selected, for reasons we are unaware of, from a work who chooses a lower estimate than many scholars agree on, then corrects to a more accurate plaque when they discover the issue, is meant to be evidence of what?

That somebody working for a herritage site was misinformed? That the general public (most of whom can quote the six million figure) are misinformed? That there is in fact more than one opinion on interpretations of the evidence?

What point is it you are trying to make? That not everybody in the public has an indepth knowledge of this particular fragment of history? Then it is a good job we understand the word "layman", and that there are numerous books, papers, and media that are happy to offer the research, evidence and scholarly debates in lay-terms. How is this any different from any other subject?

It is evidence of nothing. It is an analogy for the accuracy gap between public and historians. Just because that happens with pretty much all history does not make it OK. If you want to expand the debate I would be happy to. You may be interested in contributing to a thread about is it possible to portray history accurately on film without it being dull?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238623

 

[Moss]

What can I say? I see what could easily be a denier concern trolling us, so I release the hounds.

Well, I'm not sure what I am seeing so to follow your metaphor releasing the hounds may end with someone curious but not up to speed with the regards to the topic savaged by those dogs. Seems a case where to err on the side of caution may be beneficial.

 

[uke2se]

Well, I'm not sure what I am seeing so to follow your metaphor releasing the hounds may end with someone curious but not up to speed with the regards to the topic savaged by those dogs. Seems a case where to err on the side of caution may be beneficial.

I understand your concern, but I have never encountered such a person before. I'll call them off for now, though.

 

[Nessie]

Well, I'm not sure what I am seeing so to follow your metaphor releasing the hounds may end with someone curious but not up to speed with the regards to the topic savaged by those dogs. Seems a case where to err on the side of caution may be beneficial.

Its OK, I am old and ugly enough to cope with this. Try a debate about cables on an audiophile forum and you will see bile and hatred to make these debates seem like a big friendly cuddle.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Save yourself some time.
http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

Dragging the bodies?

Individual ovens?

Clayton saves lots of time by making up his mind and then refusing to acknowledge any contradictory facts.

In the case of this thread, he decided that it is really too bad that those poor Nazis were blamed for the deaths of 5.1 or so million Jews and a similar number of non-Jews when really they were just misunderstood guys wearingHugo Boss. And those deaths, therefore never happened or were a lot less than what is reported, because the (insert derogatory name here) always lies and is somehow making lots of money on the story;

In the USS Liberty thread, the preconception is that the Israelis launched a premeditated attack on a US ship, for an as yet unknown reason and the US government colluded in the coverup. The facts that make the whole thing look like a friendly fire incident are ignored, as is the Israeli admission made within hours and the compensation paid;

In the various 9/11 threads the whole thing was a way for a certain Middle Eastern nation to get the US to attack Iraq. Oh and so Mr Silverstein can make lots of money from insurance, forgetting the evidence that says otherwise;

In the anti-vaccination threads he believes that the medical establishment is suppressing information that would lead you know that vaccines cause autism (ignore ALL studies not from the US or that don't support his POV, because, well they aren't American are they?), apparently if you follow the money you'll figure it out; and

If you or an ancestor have a family name that sounds Jewish and you work in government, you are a dual citizen whose real allegiance is to Israel vice your actual country of citizenship.

I think that about covers it.

That was an excellent review of the video.

Nessie. What the Holocaustics fully understand is that the alleged gassings
are the foundation of the Holocaust lies and fabrications. Without the ridiculous gassing fabrication you have the 3 million Jewish people exiting trains without being registered fabrication. Then you have 3 million Jewish people who never got on the trains to begin with.

 

[Clayton Moore]

That happened because I was initially far more impressed with revisionism/denial claims then than I am now.

I came here with the view that revisionism/denial had something worthwhile to say and contribute to the study of the Holocaust, especially as I had decided to ignore their language regarding hate and anti-semitism. That came about after my experience on the Sceptic Forum, especially with a revisionist/denier who called himself Bob.

So I did end up on the fence as it has been described here, an unusual place to be in Holocaust debates. Now after a good debate I am no longer on the fence and am looking forward to laying into revisionist/deniers with the rest of you.

(And maybe a few arguments between us or else it will be a bit dull )

So you didn't view the morgue video.

 

[Cyrix686]

Oh look out it's Mr Exciting again...

 

[Dogzilla]

Gruner isn't obscure; he also wrote the major "corrective" work on the Rosenstrasse protest, discussed here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7933793&postcount=9057 and elsewhere.



Given the contents of your collected posts on this topic and its relation to the extermination actions, your preference comes as a surprise to no one.

My preference would be a Six Feet Under or Breaking Bad marathon but if I was forced to choose between reading about slave labor policies and seeing Maryann make electricity, I would take Maryann.

If you're interested, why not read the book? If you're not interested, put on another episode of Gilligan's Island.

I'm not interested so I'll take option two.

Where did ANTPogo say Gruner was denying the Holocaust?

He didn't. He asked how Gruner was able to write what he wrote without running afoul of Germany's anti-holocaust denial laws.

 

[tsig]

So we should desecrate graves to appease a minority of absolute nut jobs? I disagree.

Especially since it wouldn't do any good anyway, the denialists would just move the goalposts. In fact the mere fact there were tests done would be used to prove the denialists were right.

Look at the 911 debate, another test was done and the results disproved nano thermite but that fact didn't stop the truther brigade.

 

[tsig]

There is a debate as to whether or not it is against Jewish law to exhume remains. Then it has been pointed out that mass graves at genocide/murder sites are dug up from Katyn to Rwanada to Bosnia to establish war crimes. Furthermore archaeologists dig all sorts of sites for all sorts of investigative reasons to attract interest in a site or subject. I think that if the foundations of the buildings at Treblinka II were excavated and put on display there would be more interest and a better understanding of the site.

I don't know why there have not been such digs and have no hypothesis. But I would say I do not subscribe to any conspiratorial reason that it is to cover up the lack of remains.

I already have, but the list again is Wikipedia, The Imperial War Museum in London, Anne Franks House, The World At War documentary's episode on the Holocaust and some tours of sites from the USHMM and Auschwitz.

I have not been on the tours, the rest I have visited and from that I got my knowledge that I have subsequently found, from revisionist/deniers that that knowledge has errors.
That is not exactly an idea situation is it? I hark on about it because to my surprise there are people with way more knowledge than me who are not that bothered about such. I think that is wrong.

In the wacky world we live in there are now more people than ever prepared to believe in conspiracies and nonsense. So a better challenge to revisionism/denial is needed than at present. Hence I think there should be a full forensic archaeological analysis of Krema II and the Action Reinhard sites.

Interesting, you manage to introduce the main denial themes in a backhand manner.

 

[000063]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Save yourself some time.
http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

Dragging the bodies?

Individual ovens?




That was an excellent review of the video.

Nessie. What the Holocaustics fully understand is that the alleged gassings
are the foundation of the Holocaust lies and fabrications. Without the ridiculous gassing fabrication you have the 3 million Jewish people exiting trains without being registered fabrication. Then you have 3 million Jewish people who never got on the trains to begin with.

Strange. I thought the foundation of the lies was that Jews (except for POWs) would never allow atrocities to occur to them without all being driven into a blind murderous rage. Furthermore, Jews are the only people who would react in such a manner, in all of history, for some unexplained reason. Next to that, your claim that the evidence of the existence of these three million was all faked pales to insignificance. I'm not sure who you expected them to be "registered" with, or think that the official story says they all died in the camps.

Whenever someone puts your already ridiculous claims in context, even if it's just with each other, they look even worse.

And now you're backpedaling away from your claim that the Jews somehow deserve to be hated by anti-semites. So much for your long-standing insistence that you are totes not an anti-semite. For all that you like to phrase your statements as questions, you sure don't seem to like the answers.

 

[LemmyCaution]

My preference would be a Six Feet Under or Breaking Bad marathon but if I was forced to choose between reading about slave labor policies and seeing Maryann make electricity, I would take Maryann.

So, then, discuss whether the professor really found phospherescent rocks or not. But not here.

I'm not interested so I'll take option two.

No doubt. But you realize that this isn't the thread for discussing Mr Howell's net worth. Here, people discuss questions like the relation of the Nazi extermination program to slave labor.

Besides, if I have to watch television, I prefer funny programs . . .

He didn't. He asked how Gruner was able to write what he wrote without running afoul of Germany's anti-holocaust denial laws.

Of course he didn't. So don't act like he did. At this point I'll defer to ANTPogo and allow him to make the obvious point about why Gruner's book is germane.

 

[tsig]

The US cemetery is not a genocidal crime site.

The numbers buried there. The buildings there. Or do you think that archaeology is a waste of time and we should not have unearthed Pompeii or Skara Brae?

The attack of the 70 foot tall strawman.

 

[Dogzilla]

And you were wrong on both counts. My "attack mode" seems to be exactly what you need to get these stupid ideas out of your head.

You get "stupid ideas" out of people's heads by educating them with the facts. When you respond by attacking them for asking the questions or telling them to 'read some books' it appears as though you don't really have any good answers and you're angry at them because you don't have any good answers.

 

[Dogzilla]

Has any participant in this thread actually read Churchill's multi-volume history of WWII?

I ran out of steam about halfway through Volume 4 The Hinge of Fate. I doubt I'll ever finish although I like having the set around for reference.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I haven't read it and never would have thought of it were it not for the silly denier meme.

 

[Dogzilla]

And have. To great effect.

Nor have I.

Read for comprehenxion.

Yes you did. As an example of "lying" by deniers, you said: "For example, cm keeps trotting out Churchill, Eisenhower and DeGaulle as proof that there were no gas chambers. Which originated with Smith. When it is pointed out that there are any number of other things which those three also didn't mention which none-the-less happened (the truth cm didn't know until correction) he simply waits a while, then trots it out again. The first time was simple falsehood, even time subsequent has been a lie."

Did you mean that CM was not lying when he says Churchill, Eisenhower, or DeGaulle didn't mention gas chambers?

 

[Cyrix686]

Thanks for boring this thread to death Zilla