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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Context, Nessie, you are missing the context. And thus stepping in it, so to speak.

Aulus Agerius made note of Smith's blog that he "feels obliged to identify particular groups (about which he is complaining) as Jewish, or as the 'Jewish lobby' a pattern which continues through earlier pages of his blog."

You reply, after quoting the post mentioning Smith's depiction of the Jewish lobby and his foes, is to ask, "Is it that unreasonable to describe Jews who campaigned for denial laws as a lobby?"

This is certainly missing the point.

Now, you might disagree with Aulus Agerius and present another view of Smith's blog, one disproving the contention that he focuses on Jews and a supposed Jewish lobby. You might show that Smith discussed many lobbies and didn't have a conception of or obsession with the purported Jewish lobby.

Or you might have reflected on how survivors of a group that had been subjected to the measures which the Third Reich used to attack, isolate, and destroy European Jews might - some of them in any event - form organizations to defend themselves from future such attacks.

But you didn't do any of this. You recast Aulus Agerius's observation by posing a completely different and unrelated question. One that seems designed to obfuscate the issue.

Your tone-deafness to the context, and the very real issues raised by Aulus Agerius - and your speedy attempt to deflect - is what brought out the comments on your post. You came across, in the context and in the face of the pattern of comments noted by Aulus Agerius, and by echoing Smith's term "lobby," as almost an apologist for Smith.

I acknowledged what Aulus said, asked questions which are related to what he said and have taken a different tack with it from they way you would have done.

I appear to be way more straightforward in the way I think than you and do not have the subtexts you do.
 
an additional reflection: Coming into a forum discussing HD, and not being aware of the mountains of evidence you need to contend with - and not having mountains of evidence to call these mountains into question - and "just asking" - is such odd behavior that I don't think there is a word for it.

Nessie, again, it's context. You are not at a bar when the Holocaust comes up and you say, "Gee, I dunno, I've read like a couple books on it and I really didn't get it all and I have some questions, can I have another beer?" No, you are amongst people who have read mountains of books and gone through mountains of evidence - people you sought out - and you feel you have something interesting to offer by asking - to be polite - basic questions about the very issues these people know inside and out. Such as, "one name, with proof."

That's the problem you've raised in this thread.

OK, so I now get your issue. Knowledgeable people and out right deniers only. If I were you I would just ignore me. :)
 
OK, so I now get your issue. Knowledgeable people and out right deniers only. If I were you I would just ignore me. :)

Lemmy has shown an indepth knowledge of the subject ,along with Nick Terry, totally absent from your postings.
 
Go to 14:00 in this video where he says that the jews themselves were to blame for Auschwitz.



Do you think anti-semitism is bad?

Compared to others, Irving is not that bad. That is all I have said. He is still an anti-semite.

Of course I think anti-semitism is bad. But I would not call denial as anti-semitic in itself.
 
My position is that the revisionist/denier make some valid points. I decided to look through their agenda and anti-semitism and see what they actually have to say.

I was asked before for examples of that and another is regarding the Hitler order. I had always believed there was one, so was surprised to find that there is not and there are questions to be asked about that.

Long debunked point. Next.

I am not challenging the basic facts, but I have become sceptical of certain details. I am also more open to revisionism that others here.

No, you're not being skeptical. You're doubting them because you're ignorant of the facts. That's not skepticism. It's just ignorance. Also, it's not revisionism. Revisionism is a legitimate process that all historians engage in. Holocaust deniers simply deny, obfuscate and lie.

From the confusion that has caused it appears my position is very unusual.

Yes, and that's because it's so naive and ignorant.
 
In that the term antisemitism is unique in this world as no religion or racial group has an specific identity such as antisemitism, it would seem that those hated have caused themselves to be hated, would it not?

You should look up all words with 'ism' or 'phobe' at the end of it. Then you will see just how wrong you are.
 
I agree with Nessie that more archaeological work should be done, and that it shouldn't be restricted to non-invasive subsoil imaging just because someone's religious feelings might be hurt. At least one archaeologists I know (who is Jewish) considers that restriction rather annoying and limiting.

Careful Robert, you may cause confusion by agreeing with me and dare I say it revisionists :D
 
My position is that the revisionist/denier make some valid points. I decided to look through their agenda and anti-semitism and see what they actually have to say.

I was asked before for examples of that and another is regarding the Hitler order. I had always believed there was one, so was surprised to find that there is not and there are questions to be asked about that.

I am not challenging the basic facts, but I have become sceptical of certain details. I am also more open to revisionism that others here.

From the confusion that has caused it appears my position is very unusual.

You keep citing examples of deniers making what you call good points - that have already been made or are being made by historians.

Hitler order - read Peter Longerich's The Unwritten Order (it is a short book), then his longer books, Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews and his Himmler biography. To name just one author. Also look into the intentionalist/functionalist debate. No deniers needed . . .
 
Careful Robert, you may cause confusion by agreeing with me and dare I say it revisionists :D

Seriously, get a grip. Robert is simply expressing a position that we all hold. Deniers (please stop calling them revisionists - they are not) simply lie when they claim any of us are against archaeological examinations of the camps.
 
I acknowledged what Aulus said, asked questions which are related to what he said and have taken a different tack with it from they way you would have done.

I appear to be way more straightforward in the way I think than you and do not have the subtexts you do.

"Jewish lobby" is not a "subtext" - nor is sorting through that Bradley Smith has one concern about one so-called lobby. Sheesh.
 
OK, so I now get your issue. Knowledgeable people and out right deniers only. If I were you I would just ignore me. :)

Not at all. It is the stance you take. As I told you elsewhere, I can't touch Nick's knowledge - but I don't go around asking basic questions and "challenging" basic knowledge that I should/could easily gain. You keep posting stuff that is surprising to you but not to people versed in this material even a little bit. And then making statements that you're therefore open to denial. It's a silly stance. That's all.
 
Long debunked point. Next.



No, you're not being skeptical. You're doubting them because you're ignorant of the facts. That's not skepticism. It's just ignorance. Also, it's not revisionism. Revisionism is a legitimate process that all historians engage in. Holocaust deniers simply deny, obfuscate and lie.



Yes, and that's because it's so naive and ignorant.

Please please read exactly what I say and do not read anything else into it.

"My position is that the revisionist/denier make some valid points. I decided to look through their agenda and anti-semitism and see what they actually have to say.

I was asked before for examples of that and another is regarding the Hitler order. I had always believed there was one, so was surprised to find that there is not and there are questions to be asked about that."

From that you make comment about the lack of a direct Hitler order being debunked. I know that. Point is I did not learn that there is no specific Hitler Order from basic standard history or a knowledgeable believer during a debate on the topic who continually claimed there was such an order. I found that out from a revisionist.

I do realise now that I have been attaching too much credit to revisionism for the genuine revision that has gone on, particularly regarding numbers killed.
 
Seriously, get a grip. Robert is simply expressing a position that we all hold. Deniers (please stop calling them revisionists - they are not) simply lie when they claim any of us are against archaeological examinations of the camps.

Seriously, just read what I said and note the use of smillies.

I usually type revisionist/denier.

So why no archaeological digs at all the sites if historians are not against them? The one dig as such at Belzec was motivated by siting monuments as opposed to a full research project.
 
Please please read exactly what I say and do not read anything else into it.

"My position is that the revisionist/denier make some valid points. I decided to look through their agenda and anti-semitism and see what they actually have to say.

I was asked before for examples of that and another is regarding the Hitler order. I had always believed there was one, so was surprised to find that there is not and there are questions to be asked about that."

From that you make comment about the lack of a direct Hitler order being debunked. I know that. Point is I did not learn that there is no specific Hitler Order from basic standard history or a knowledgeable believer during a debate on the topic who continually claimed there was such an order. I found that out from a revisionist.

A denier. You found that out from a denier, because you never bothered to read up on it. If you had bothered to look into what has been written on the subject, it would not have come as a surprise to you, nor would you have learned it from a denier.

Is your point that you should have learned about this in high school? Do you think a high school teacher should take time to explain how we know Hitler gave the order while there's no document? I hope you realize why this is a stupid proposition.

I do realise now that I have been attaching too much credit to revisionism for the genuine revision that has gone on, particularly regarding numbers killed.

Denialism. Not revisionism. Revisionism is a legitimate process engaged in by proper historians. Deniers aren't proper historians.
 
Point is I did not learn that there is no specific Hitler Order from basic standard history or a knowledgeable believer during a debate on the topic who continually claimed there was such an order. I found that out from a revisionist.

Not to be flippant, but have you considered that this has to do with what you've read, or, more importantly, haven't read, and not with what deniers have written?
 
Seriously, just read what I said and note the use of smillies.

I usually type revisionist/denier.

So why no archaeological digs at all the sites if historians are not against them? The one dig as such at Belzec was motivated by siting monuments as opposed to a full research project.

Oh, I don't know... Possibly because they are burial sites where people still alive lost their closest relatives? Is this an impossible concept for you to grasp?
 
Seriously, just read what I said and note the use of smillies.

I usually type revisionist/denier.

So why no archaeological digs at all the sites if historians are not against them? The one dig as such at Belzec was motivated by siting monuments as opposed to a full research project.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but historians are not archaeologists, nor trained in the techniques of archaeology. Their investigations take place in other venues, so to speak.

Do you have a hypothesis on why there haven't been as many digs as you'd like?
 
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