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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Well, this is certainly old hat. cwporter, in his rather opaque post, seems to be informing us that bad testimonies happen. Courts of law, of course, see bad evidence routinely - they are able to separate out the bad from the good and reject it. Historians, too, wrestle with this problem, often going further than courts, in a way, and determining why the bad evidence they consider exists and in what way it is meaningful. Only revisionists seem confounded by bad evidence for the Holocaust - and only they make no effort to weigh the bad and the good; for revisionists, simply listing bad rumors, mistakes, exaggerations, and leaps of the imagination regarding Nazi programs and actions is meant to speak for itself and meant to stand in for the totality of evidence.

I welcome cwporter to this forum, but he is off to a terrible start with three laughable posts.
 
About as likely as an American historian suppressing something he or she comes across or thinks. But conflating attitudes and laws makes you sound daft - what is your concern here? Anyway, look up Fogel & Engerman, Time on the Cross, or Gene Genovese . . . and please don't say that slavery in the US lacks emotional impact or punch . . .

But my question wasn't designed to get you to you speculate, based on nothing but your fears, about how German historians figure out their research programs. It was meant to have you tell us about actual cases where the laws have thwarted a researcher. You answered my question, saying no, you know of not a single case of a German historian bending his or her research because of anti-HD legislation. The rest of your reply is simply a repetition of your groundless speculation and your mixing of apples and oranges.

OK so rather than go round in circles my answer is we clearly do not know if evidence has been suppressed or not, we know of no examples of the suppression of evidence, but under the existing laws and treatment of revisionists it is a possibility.
 
Anything is possible -- but historians don't deal with possible. We deal with "is" or at least "is likely".

Now, getting back to your reasonable questions about Krema II?
 
Then why don't you set down 1) the reasons for your doubts, summarizing the evidence pro and con and explaining why you think gassings may not have been carried out at this location, 2) the significance of your doubts and what they mean for Piper's estimate of the Jewish death toll at Auschwitz, and 3) where, for example, Pressac or van Pelt is in error about Krema II?



.......

My main doubts about the Auschwitz I gas chamber is its proximity to other buildings and issues of pouring Zyklon B through the holes. Unless all SS and civilian workers are complete animals, which is highly unlikely, it is a very odd place to put a homicidal gas chamber. There are clear risks to others nearby such as what if there was a fightback by those waiting to be gassed and shooting started? What about wind catching the Zyklon B as it is poured?

My main doubts about Krema II as pretty much as above. Then thousands upon thousands of people queued up with minimal guards, near to barracks of other inmates and a football field. They were shoved into the chamber 2000 at a time. The log jam caused by the lift, which was not built for such a purposed of removing 2000 bodies at a time, but makes far more sense if it was a mortuary. Then there are the holes, which have been so tampered with it is inconclusive as to whether they were there or not as described so that the wire mesh columns could be used as described. Its use as a crematorium at a place where disease, mistreatment and murder by beatings and shootings meant a very high death toll fits with its purpose and location. Then we know that false stories of gassing are possible as they happened at Dachau. Why not Auschwitz? Then there is the problem of tampering with evidence as Krema I is heavily altered and Krema II blown up. Both have also been in Soviet hands and they cannot be trusted with physical evidence.

Then as I say I am not a denier, so I think some gassings did take place which explains where the witnesses come from and the stories. But leading onto figures David Cole's visit and interview with Dr Piper covers the main points of doubt. (Cole's visit and goes back to cover one of my earlier points about the public being mis-informed). As for revision of the figures, even at 1.1 million gassed that seems very high and because of how and where Krema I and II functioned.

The Action Reinhard death camps match an evidential standard far better than Auschwitz. We know about the motive to kill Jews. The ability of the Nazis to do what they did. Their guilty knowledge of what happened. Their intent to remove Jews from Europe, the conduct after the crime as they destroyed the sites, the opportunity to commit the crime out of sight in a much better controlled situation, their preparation for the crime as the sites had no other reason to exist.

The gas chambers at Auschwitz and Birkenau do not match such a standard particularly with the conduct after the crime where no effort was made to hide what had happened, the opportunity was poor as they were surrounded by witnesses and the environment was less controlled and the preparation of the site was clearly for coping with expected dead of a concentration camp.

I cant answer re Van Pelt or Pressac as I don't have the detail as yet.
 
Before we get into a debate about the functioning of the Auschwitz Kremas I want to go back over some of the points raised so far.

This is the first time I have come across a reasonable critique of how revisionism/denial functions. The Sceptic forum has detailed debates about the facts and a lot of trading of insults. I do not think CODOH has any real value at all. Here the thread is a bit of a rambling mess and it is a shame everything is lumped into one. But Lemmy, thanks, you have made some very good points about the motive of revisionism/denial and their motives and I now realise I could not see the wood for the trees as I was getting bogged down in their detail.

What I think is that there is clear ground between revisionism/denial and the believer side and I am causing confusion by occupying it so both sides are scratching their heads thinking, what is he all about?

The overall evidence for the Holocaust is overwhelming, but I am not prepared to dismiss revisionism/denial's evidence in ad hominem attacks about anti-semitic, hate nonsense.
 
Lemmy I have read up about the survey at Belzec and found the report by Roberto on Carlo Mattogno's criticisms very convincing. The same is true of of the review by O'Neil and Tregenza on HEART, I thought that explained what happened very well.

Numerous core samples have found remains and that is a reasonable alternative to getting out a spade and digging as has been suggested before.

However, I think that there could have been improvements especially with better use of photography to show how the survey was conducted and of what was found.
 
Lemmy I have read up about the survey at Belzec and found the report by Roberto on Carlo Mattogno's criticisms very convincing. The same is true of of the review by O'Neil and Tregenza on HEART, I thought that explained what happened very well.

Numerous core samples have found remains and that is a reasonable alternative to getting out a spade and digging as has been suggested before.

However, I think that there could have been improvements especially with better use of photography to show how the survey was conducted and of what was found.
In 1998 Robin O'Neil published an article outlining some of the archaeological research that had been conducted prior to the construction of the new memorial in Belzec. In a 2007 "critique" of the article, your old Codoh pal Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis posted the following observation about human remains found outside of the mass graves area during excavations of other camp structures.

"- a photo of a human skull and a few bones strewn across a modern, paved surface...laughable, something from a high school theatre props cabinet that were simply placed there "

Are these the people for whom mass graves should be exhumed? What do you think could "satisfy" a person like that? Is he one of those you thought was better at requesting additional information than the historians who actually worked in these places?
 
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My main doubts about the Auschwitz I gas chamber is its proximity to other buildings and issues of pouring Zyklon B through the holes. Unless all SS and civilian workers are complete animals, which is highly unlikely, it is a very odd place to put a homicidal gas chamber. There are clear risks to others nearby such as what if there was a fightback by those waiting to be gassed and shooting started? What about wind catching the Zyklon B as it is poured?
Why do you find it odd, such that the SS and Kapos would need to be animals? What if there was a fight? What do you believe would happen if the "wind caught the Zyklon B"?

The fact that you even ask that questions shows you know almost nothing about Zyklon B nor the gas it produces. What is its density compared with the general atmosphere?
My main doubts about Krema II as pretty much as above. Then thousands upon thousands of people queued up with minimal guards, near to barracks of other inmates and a football field. They were shoved into the chamber 2000 at a time.
On the inside of the building, where no one else would see....
The log jam caused by the lift, which was not built for such a purposed of removing 2000 bodies at a time, but makes far more sense if it was a mortuary.
Can you find any documentation or testimony at all the says it was?
Then there are the holes, which have been so tampered with it is inconclusive as to whether they were there or not as described so that the wire mesh columns could be used as described.
Read this and get back to us.
Its use as a crematorium at a place where disease, mistreatment and murder by beatings and shootings meant a very high death toll fits with its purpose and location.
You do realize the Krema gave the capacity for 30,000 corpses per month? Can you document a death rate for the above causes anywhere near that?
Then we know that false stories of gassing are possible as they happened at Dachau.
What false stories are those?
Why not Auschwitz?
Because we have a mountain of evidence supporting the normative view, while you have "it doesn't feel right to me".
Then there is the problem of tampering with evidence as Krema I is heavily altered
Was, and then was reconstructed.
and Krema II blown up.
Kremas II -- V were blown up.
Both have also been in Soviet hands and they cannot be trusted with physical evidence.
Because ... ?

Why would the Soviets try to create or maintain a hoax in "benefit" of the Jews?
Then as I say I am not a denier, so I think some gassings did take place which explains where the witnesses come from and the stories.
Why do the things you say about KII not apply to the others in that building?
But leading onto figures David Cole's visit and interview with Dr Piper covers the main points of doubt. (Cole's visit and goes back to cover one of my earlier points about the public being mis-informed).
No, it goes back to our earlier point about deniers lying and distorting the facts. You *do* know he has since recounted, right?
As for revision of the figures, even at 1.1 million gassed that seems very high and because of how and where Krema I and II functioned.
Then what happened to all of the rest who are documented as being put on trains to Auschwitz and were never heard from again?
The Action Reinhard death camps match an evidential standard far better than Auschwitz. We know about the motive to kill Jews. The ability of the Nazis to do what they did. Their guilty knowledge of what happened. Their intent to remove Jews from Europe, the conduct after the crime as they destroyed the sites, the opportunity to commit the crime out of sight in a much better controlled situation, their preparation for the crime as the sites had no other reason to exist.

The gas chambers at Auschwitz and Birkenau do not match such a standard particularly with the conduct after the crime where no effort was made to hide what had happened, the opportunity was poor as they were surrounded by witnesses and the environment was less controlled and the preparation of the site was clearly for coping with expected dead of a concentration camp.

I cant answer re Van Pelt or Pressac as I don't have the detail as yet.
Don't you feel you should review the basic literature before you make yourself look foolish as you did above?
 
You should be prepared to accept that they are Nazis first and foremost. You are being exceptionally naiive to continue to think otherwise. Stick around, have a look at the things that Revisionists write. If you can stand it, have a look at cw porter's website, or Gerdes, or even Berg's. Three nutzis. You've obviously not been called a "dirty Jew" by Mr. Berg, have you? That's the type of Guru your nonsensical revisionists look up to.

You missed the exchange where a poster to set him up and to expose his hate suggested to Greg Gerdes that Treblinka was a:

"...filthy dirty lying jews hoax." To which Gerdes replied:

"precisely..." (name redacted).

Have another look at the collection of Anti-Semitic comments furnished by Lemmy Caution before you hand wave Revisionist Anti Semitism as mere "nonsense," Nessie. Because it isn't. It's very real.

Back to History...
 
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You should be prepared to accept that they are Nazis first and foremost. You are being exceptionally naiive to continue to think otherwise. Stick around, have a look at the things that Revisionists write. If you can stand it, have a look at cw porter's website, or Gerdes, or even Berg's. Three nutzis. You've obviously not been called a "dirty Jew" by Mr. Berg, have you? That's the type of Guru your nonsensical revisionists look up to.

You missed the exchange where a poster to set him up and to expose his hate suggested to Greg Gerdes that Treblinka was a:

"...filthy dirty lying jews hoax." To which Gerdes replied:

"precisely..." (name redacted).

Have another look at the collection of Anti-Semitic comments furnished by Lemmy Caution before you hand wave Revisionist Anti Semitism as mere "nonsense," Nessie. Because it isn't. It's very real.

Back to History...

I did say that in a past debate with a revisionist who claimed no anti-semitism I won hands down by providing him with examples of such. Here all I have said is the Bradley Smith avoids anti-semitic remarks and David Irving's are minimal. I am well aware of the likes of Hannover's anti-semitism.

When I said anti-semitism hate nonsense I meant the anti-semitism and hate is nonsense, it is stupid, despicable and wrong.
 
In 1998 Robin O'Neil published an article outlining some of the archaeological research that had been conducted prior to the construction of the new memorial in Belzec. In a 2007 "critique" of the article, your old Codoh pal Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis posted the following observation about human remains found outside of the mass graves area during excavations of other camp structures.

"- a photo of a human skull and a few bones strewn across a modern, paved surface...laughable, something from a high school theatre props cabinet that were simply placed there "

Are these the people for whom mass graves should be exhumed? What do you think could "satisfy" a person like that? Is he one of those you thought was better at requesting additional information than the historians who actually worked in these places?

Maybe not satisfy, but I would love to see his face when presented with the evidence he cries out for.

I do think there is a valid point that mass graves are exhumed in many cases to investigate war crimes from Katyn to Rwanda. So why not the Action Reinhard camps?
 
Nuremberg Trial transcript - criminal organisations

The defense evidence for the "criminal organizations" consists of the testimony of 102 witnesses and 312,022 notarized affidavits (XXII 176 [200]).

The term "criminal" was never defined (XXII 310 [354]; see also XXII 129-135[148-155]).

Nor was it defined when these organizations became "criminal" (XXII 240 [272-273]).
The Nazi Party itself was criminal dating back to 1920 (XXII 251 [285]) or then again maybe only1938 (XXII 113 [130]) or maybe even not at all (II 105 [123]).

Edited by Locknar: 
<SNIP>, breach of rule 4.

Summation relating to the testimony of the 102 witnesses appears mostly in fine print in volumes XXI and XXII in the Nuremberg Trial transcript. The fine print means that the passages were deleted from the final defense summation (otherwise the trial would have been much too long). This material runs to several hundred pages. In the transcript published in the United Kingdom, every word of this material is gone.

Referrence link: http://www.cwporter.com/kadavar.htm (reference added by Locknar)
 
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I did say that in a past debate with a revisionist who claimed no anti-semitism I won hands down by providing him with examples of such. Here all I have said is the Bradley Smith avoids anti-semitic remarks and David Irving's are minimal. I am well aware of the likes of Hannover's anti-semitism.

When I said anti-semitism hate nonsense I meant the anti-semitism and hate is nonsense, it is stupid, despicable and wrong.

I don't think that you "won". First, "minimal" or not, Irving clearly is anti-semitic. That little ditty of his demonstrates a pretty unpleasant level of anti-semitism, however rarely he let it show. Second, just scanning through the front page of Smith's blog, I get the feeling that he is anti-semitic, probably because of the way that he feels obliged to identify particular groups (about which he is complaining) as Jewish, or as the "Jewish lobby" a pattern which continues through earlier pages of his blog. That might not be a very scientific or comprehensive survey of Bradley's views, but there is something there that sits ill with me.
 
Nazi crap snipped

Please stop spamming crap from your webpage. If you have something to say, partake in the discussion. If we want to see your Nazi apologetics, we'll visit your webpage. No need to soil our forums with your excrement.

Thank you.
 
I don't think that you "won". First, "minimal" or not, Irving clearly is anti-semitic. That little ditty of his demonstrates a pretty unpleasant level of anti-semitism, however rarely he let it show. Second, just scanning through the front page of Smith's blog, I get the feeling that he is anti-semitic, probably because of the way that he feels obliged to identify particular groups (about which he is complaining) as Jewish, or as the "Jewish lobby" a pattern which continues through earlier pages of his blog. That might not be a very scientific or comprehensive survey of Bradley's views, but there is something there that sits ill with me.

I don't think you have even read the debate, if so please link to it. David Irving was listed as an anti-semitic revisionist/denier.

Is it that unreasonable to describe Jews who campaigned for denial laws as a lobby? Or did all the countries who introduce denier laws do so off their own backs with no input or influence from Jewish people at all?
 
Which Jews are those?

None that you have proven...

I don't see how that answers the questions I asked. They clearly are questions.

There is Jewish influence in the UK not to have denial laws here, see Sir Leon Brittain MP and and journalist Melanie Phillips.
 
I don't see how that answers the questions I asked. They clearly are questions.

There is Jewish influence in the UK not to have denial laws here, see Sir Leon Brittain MP and and journalist Melanie Phillips.

So now there's a Jewish conspiracy against denial laws?
 
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