Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

[Akhenaten]

Why should I

In order to demonstrate that you have read the book.

Guess what.

she brought it in, she should give the quote and page #.

Only if there was some question that she was telling the truth.

Guess what.

I don't say some author said something and then ask others to go looking for the quote.

Oh yes you do, including ridiculous references to works that you know are not available outside your own little country.

 

[Akhenaten]

Also, while I have your attention . . .

Somehow, DOC, you seem to have missed the several questions that were asked of you in response to this post.

Can't have that, now can we?

I'll help you out with some big bold text . . .

Why aren't Muslim martyrs evidence for the truth of Islam in the same way that, according to you, Christian martyrs are evidence for the truth of Christianity?​

Take your time. I'm not going anywhere.

Just like Tyre.

 

[Akhenaten]

I don't say some author said something and then ask others to go looking for the quote.

Not only is this untrue, but it ignores those occasions when you've claimed that an author said something and then been shown to be wrong (or lying).

The recent fiasco of misidentifying the person who wrote the big, bold letters on the cover blurb of Ehrman's book and your misquoting of those words to support one of your intellectually bankrupt arguments comes to mind as an example of this.

Want a link?


ETA:

Don't bother answering that. I'll provide one anyway.

What book?

"Did Jesus Exist" by Skeptic Bart Ehrman.

Yeah, but which edition?


This one:

"Skeptic favorite Bart Ehrman's new book says "YES, JESUS OF NAZARETH DID EXIST.

Or this one:

Here is a quote from the inside jacket of the book.

<snip>

YES, THE HISTORICAL JESUS OF NAZARETH DID EXIST.

 

[pakeha]

If that was the case then they must not have believed or were paying attention when Christ said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to 'every' creature." And also when he said "this gospel will be preached in all the world and 'then' the end will come."

Either that or they must have had confidence in themselves to be able to preach to every person in the world (including such known places as Spain, England, Africa, and Asia) in their lifetime and while much of this area was controlled by the brutal Romans who had their own gods they built huge temples in honor of.

I quite like the edited version, actually.
Adding " who had their own gods they built huge temples in honor of" after "brutal Romans" really tightens the focus on the Apostles'^TM difficulties, doesn't it?

Why should I, she brought it in, she should give the quote and page #.

Of course, DOC, so you can look it up in your own copy!

I don't say some author said something and then ask others to go looking for the quote.

My memory must be at fault. I have the impression we had a merry hunt for sir Ramsey's works, ending up eventually with sir Ramsey's account of the adventures of Paula, the slave girl.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Why should I...

Is it just me, or did anyone else read this and hear PeeWee Herman?

 

[zooterkin]

Why should I, she brought it in, she should give the quote and page #.

I don't say some author said something and then ask others to go looking for the quote.

Don't you?

Well since it seems most skeptics don't care what I believe, I'll say Ehrman believes Peter, James (the brother of Jesus), Paul, and Judas existed, and said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Christ. I don't know how he feels about the others on the list.

That's not true. According to the Christian religion (which is my religion), Jesus is God in the flesh and part of the Godhead. And even skeptic Bart Ehrman said "Jesus certainly existed". So my God or at least part of that God has been shown to exist.

I've read about 30% of the book which is mostly arguing that Jesus did exist. And I see you disagree with Ehrman's statement that "Jesus certainly existed".

At the end of the book it seems his biggest argument against Jesus being divine is the ol' "This generation shall/may not pass" verse, and that Jesus was a an Apocalyptic preacher. (I however believe the evidence is there Jesus was much more than just this.)

Regarding the "This generation shall/may not pass" verse (Mark 13:30), Ehrman doesn't say a word (that I saw) that "genea" can be translated as "race", and he doesn't say a word about Young's Literal Translation of the verse that says "This generation "may" not pass.

I also didn't see him talk about the verse two verses later that says no one, not even the Son of Man knows the day or hour.

___

My main reason for talking about this book is: "skeptics won't believe me when I say the historical evidence is there that Jesus existed, but some might believe Bart Ehrman when he says Jesus certainly existed.

And before you can believe Jesus was divine you have to believe he existed. So even though I don't agree with Ehrman's final conclusion and I don't believe he was ever a real Christian filled with the Holy Spirit (he does claim he was a Christian), I think the book might help some skeptics break their Jesus never existed entrenched mindset.

I see several references to what Ehrman said, without a single page number.

 

[ddt]

If that was the case then they must not have believed or were paying attention when Christ said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to 'every' creature." And also when he said "this gospel will be preached in all the world and 'then' the end will come."

Either that or they must have had confidence in themselves to be able to preach to every person in the world (including such known places as Spain, England, Africa, and Asia) in their lifetime and while much of this area was controlled by the brutal Romans who had their own gods they built huge temples in honor of.

Paul alone in his mission is alleged to have travelled much of the Mediterranean basin - have you ever taken the trouble to look up where those cities lies his letters are named after? And Simon the Zealot ended up in England - Caistor, Lincolnshire to be exact. Really, the known world was not big - roughly from the Atlantic in the west to the Indus in the east, the Sahara in the south to the Danube and Rhine in the north. Are you saying the 12 apostles, inspired by Jesus' words, couldn't muster that?

And what do you mean "huge"? Take, for instance, the temple at Elst in the Netherlands. One of the biggest north of the Alps, it only measured 23 by 30 meters. That's big, but not huge in my playbook.

The one Lendering describes there is the second temple on that site: the first was burned down during the Batavian Revolt of 69AD. The temple is remarkable because also because it gave archaeological confirmation of the suovetaurilia sacrifice consisting of a pig (sus), sheep (ovis) and bull (taurus), which was only known thus far from Roman literature.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Ah, yes, those brutal Romans.
They DID give us recipes like this, though.

Yum! I just happen to have some artichokes in the fridge, too...

 

[DOC]

Don't you?








I see several references to what Ehrman said, without a single page number.

Will you apologize if I produce at least 2 quotes where I give page numbers?

 

[Fitter]

Why should I, she brought it in, she should give the quote and page #.

I don't say some author said something and then ask others to go looking for the quote.

I can see why you wouldn't want that, what with people actually looking up the quotes and seeing how you've taken them out of context.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Will you apologize if I produce at least 2 quotes where I give page numbers?

I will if you produce a post where you give page numbers showing Ehrman saying that the Jesus he thinks existed is divine or the son of a god.

 

[DOC]

If that was the case then they must not have believed or were paying attention when Christ said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to 'every' creature." And also when he said "this gospel will be preached in all the world and 'then' the end will come."

Either that or they must have had confidence in themselves to be able to preach to every person in the world (including such known places as Spain, England, Africa, and Asia) in their lifetime and while much of this area was controlled by the brutal Romans who had their own gods they built huge temples in honor of.

...And what do you mean "huge" {temples}? Take, for instance, the temple at Elst in the Netherlands. One of the biggest north of the Alps, it only measured 23 by 30 meters. That's big, but not huge in my playbook.

The one Lendering describes there is the second temple on that site: the first was burned down during the Batavian Revolt of 69AD. The temple is remarkable because also because it gave archaeological confirmation of the suovetaurilia sacrifice consisting of a pig (sus), sheep (ovis) and bull (taurus), which was only known thus far from Roman literature.

Here are some others from Wiki on Roman temples:

WITHIN THE CITY OF ROME
Temple to All the Gods, known as the Pantheon - Campus Martius
Temple of Antoninus and Faustina - Roman Forum
Temple of Apollo Palatinus - Palatine Hill
Temple of Apollo Sosianus - Near the Theater of Marcellus
Temple of Bellona (Rome) - Near the Theater of Marcellus
Temple of Bona Dea - Aventine Hill
Temple of Caesar - Roman Forum
Temple of Castor and Pollux - In the Roman Forum
Temple of Concord - Roman Forum at the base of the Capitoline
Temple of Cybele (Magna Mater) - Palatine Hill
Temple of Diana - Aventine Hill
Temple of Divus Augustus behind Basilica Julia
Temple of Hadrian - Campus Martius (Built into Chamber of Commerce building)
Temple of Hercules Victor
Temple of Isis and Serapis - Campus Martius
Temple of Janus (Roman Forum)
Temple of Janus (Forum Holitorium)
Temple of Juno Moneta - Capitoline Hill
Temple of Jupiter (Capitoline Hill) - Capitoline Hill (under Palazzo Conservatori)
Temple of Mars Ultor - Forum of Augustus
Nymphaeum often called (erroneously) a Temple of Minerva Medica, formerly in the Forum Transitorum
Temple of Minerva Medica, named in literary sources but no longer extant
Temple of Peace - Forum of Peace (now mostly covered by Via dei Fori Imperiali)
Temple of Portunus - Near Santa Maria in Cosmedin
Temple of Romulus - Roman Forum
Temple of Saturn - West end of the Roman Forum
Temple of Siriaco - Janiculum Hill
Temple of Venus and Roma - Northeast corner of the Roman Forum
Temple of Venus Genetrix - Forum of Caesar
Temple of Vespasian and Titus
Temple of Vesta - Roman Forum
Temple of Veiovis - Capitoline Hill (Basement of Palazzo Senatorio)

Italian peninsula
Temple of Apollo (Pompeii)
Temple of Bellona (Ostia)
Temple of Vesta - Tivoli

Europe
Temple of Claudius, Colchester, England,[2][3]
Arthur's O'on, Stenhousemuir, Scotland
Pagans Hill Roman Temple, Somerset, England
Roman Baths (Bath) and Temple of Sulis Minerva, Bath, Somerset, England
London Mithraeum, Londinium, modern London
Temple of Augustus (Pula) - Pula, Croatia
Temple of Augustus in Ancyra - Ankara, Turkey
Roman Temple of Évora - Évora, Portugal
Temple of Augustus in Barcelona - Barcelona, Spain
Roman temple of Alcántara, Spain
Roman temple of Vic, Spain
Roman temple of Córdoba, Spain
Maison Carrée - Nîmes, Southern France
Temple of Augusta and Livia - Vienne, France

Africa and the Near East
Temple of Bacchus - Baalbek, Lebanon
Temple of Artemis (Jerash)
Donuktas Roman Temple - Tarsus [3]
Umayyad Mosque, Damascus, Syria
Ain Harcha, Lebanon
Kfar Qouq, Lebanon
Aaiha, Lebanon
Deir El Aachayer, Lebanon
Yanta, Lebanon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_temple

ETA.
I don't think a lot of people realize just how drastically Jesus and Christianity changed the world.

A good book on this topic is titled "What If Jesus had Never Been Born".

 

[ddt]

Will you apologize if I produce at least 2 quotes where I give page numbers?

That's what I call chutzpah. You're a serial liar yourself and refuse to apologize when called on it.

 

[ddt]

Here are some others from Wiki on Roman temples:

<snip list of temples>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_temple

What has that list to do with how big they were?

 

[zooterkin]

Will you apologize if I produce at least 2 quotes where I give page numbers?

Apologise for what, exactly?

I demonstrated that you have done exactly what you were complaining about. The fact that you don't always do it is neither here nor there. It's also the case that you very often choose to complain that someone has not provided a reference when one is not actually necessary, and avoid addressing the substantive point they are making.

 

[Lucian]

Apologise for what, exactly?

I demonstrated that you have done exactly what you were complaining about. The fact that you don't always do it is neither here nor there. It's also the case that you very often choose to complain that someone has not provided a reference when one is not actually necessary, and avoid addressing the substantive point they are making.

He also complains that people have not provided references when they clearly have.

 

[Craig B]

Here are some others from Wiki on Roman temples:
<snip list of many temples>
I don't think a lot of people realize just how drastically Jesus and Christianity changed the world.

Before Christianity there were many temples, but what has the number of temples got to do with anything? Now there's a comparable number of churches, mosques, synagogues and other monotheist places of worship, as well as temples to many Hindu gods, not unlike the kind of temples to various gods that the pagan Romans had.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I don't think a lot of people realize just how drastically Jesus and Christianity changed the world.

You could probably say the same thing about the bubonic plague.

And your point is?

 

[pakeha]

... Take, for instance, the temple at Elst in the Netherlands. One of the biggest north of the Alps, it only measured 23 by 30 meters. ...

Wow. Posts like that make these threads worthwhile. Thank you, ddt!

...
I don't think a lot of people realize just how drastically Jesus and Christianity changed the world. ...

Actually, DOC, we do.
That's why we're here.
Trying to make sense of it.

 

[joobz]

Will you apologize if I produce at least 2 quotes where I give page numbers?

Have you yet to apologize to Agatha for insinuating that she has not read the book?

Do you often demand things of others which you are unable to do yourself?
How would Jesus, if he was real, respond to such behavior?