General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[TSR]

Elie Wiesel isn't the only holocaust survivor propagandist to have been proven a liar.

Except that Wiesel *hasn't* been proven a liar...

There are many such frauds. Simon Wiesenthal was a liar.

And to "prove" this, you cite the proven liar Mark Weber?

Jan Karski was a liar.

404. Why don't you summarize porter's "proof"?

Rudolf Vrba was a liar.

The best your source can do is cite some errors in Vrba's memory

Jankiel Wiernik was a liar.

I see no lies proven on those pages, just a lot of personal incredulity.

Abraham Bomba was a liar.

Again, a lot of sneering and leading questions, but none of that, you know, proof thingy.

etc etc etc.

Indeed.

Now, why don't you get back to answer the question you've been asked but from which you have been running?

 

[TSR]

Nuremberg was a show trial if ever there was one.
One standard for the victors and one standard for the defeated.

Which is not the defining feature of a show trial

The soviet prosecution even accused the defendants of committing the Katyn massacre of which they were responsible.

And got shot down by the other Allies.

Strange, that, for a show trial...

Many prominent judges and jurists of the day dismissed the legal validity of the trials including US supreme court justice Harlan Fiske Stone who referred to them as a "sanctimonious fraud" and a "lynching party".

No, a few did. And Stone was of the opinion that the trial should have been under Western-style common law, a concept not understood in exactly the same way in each of the countries -- and not at all to speak of in the Soviet Union.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Exposing Lies and Liars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNTS9N9s1pE

No blue stains from the alleged Zykon-B gas chambers. Doors that latch from the inside and don't lock.


http://www.natallnews.com/story.php?id=3615

Now, the Jewish legend about Auschwitz has it that upon arrival, the prisoners were ‘selected” as those fit for work and those not, and those not, were gassed straight away. However, Kluger informs us that she was not gassed, but instead, put in the “family camp” ! So, instead of actually gassing labor-unfriendly families, the “evil” Nazis actually went out of their way, at considerable expense, to accommodate families!

She then describes how she lied her way into a work detail, even though she was only 12 (if that can be believed!), and how she somehow survived. When asked how she survived, Kluger gives the typical evasive lying response: “That you ask yourself: How on earth did we get out? How was it at all possible to get out? That thought sometimes occurs to me again and again.”

Most interesting of all, however, is her utterly evasive and palpably untrue account of how she finally escaped from the ‘Nazi death camp’ – apparently, she just walked away! Let the Jewess tell you herself:

The full incredible and utterly unbelievable interview
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,435879,00.html


Association of Spurious Survivors of the Holocaust and other Liars
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/stories/LATimes091002.html


Diane Sawyer Flabbergasted By Holocaust Love Liar
http://gawker.com/5155680/diane-sawyer-flabbergasted-by-holocaust-love-liar


http://www.whale.to/b/rudolph_b1.html

L: So Lanzmann is just taking the movie-goer for a ride.
Just so. But even worse: as early as 1985, in an interview, Lanzmann admitted to paying all his German witnesses the sum of 3,000 deutschmarks, after which the witnesses had to sign a pledge to keep quiet about the payments for 30 years. But money alone was not enough. To get witnesses to come forward at all, he invented a “Research Center for Contemporary History,” with fake letterheads from an “Académie de Paris” and fake identity documents in the name of “Claude-Marie Sorel,” “Doctor of Historical Scholarship.” In 2004, he even bragged about this before school children:
“And then I paid them. No small sums, either. I paid them all, the Germans.”

http://zioncrimefactory.com/tag/holocaust-liars/

The Chutzpah of Jew Liar Elie Wiesel
Posted on April 27, 2012 by ZionCrimeFactory

Here is some profound Talmudic wisdom from the borderline schizophrenic scoundrel, Elie Wiesel: “Things are not that simple, Rebbe. Some events do take place but are not true; others are — although they never occurred.” – Elie Wiesel, The Legends

http://zioncrimefactory.com/2012/04/27/the-chutzpah-of-jew-liar-elie-wiesel/


Make sure you view the video.
http://holocaustdenialvideos.com/

This website advocates good vibes and kindness to all Jewish people

 

[TSR]

< snip link spam >

Yeah, if I had as little luck posting my own words and ideas as you do, I might consider mindlessly parroting others' work, too.

But unlike you, I would discard that option because I would know that everyone would see my impotent inability to make and support my own arguments.

You know, like that whole "94% effective death threat" thing to which you made Jews immune?

It's blindingly obvious that you cannot reconcile these in a way that doesn't make you look a fool, but your posts have already done that long ago.

Of course, none of these people are ever cited by actual historians writing about actual history, and it has been freely acknowledged on the normative side of this debate that there are unscrupulous liars taking advantage of this tragedy. making this post a double fail.

And *that* my friend, is what passes for denier "scholarship".

 

[TSR]

Make sure you view the video.
http://holocaustdenialvideos.com/

... so that you can better understand how epic a fail these represent, as shown here.

 

[000063]

...
If you had studied any modern genocide, you would find this "name one Jew" is the kind of special pleading which deniers apply only to the Holocaust...

And when you do name one Jew, they call it a fraud, while simultaneously studiously refusing to provide evidence for their claims.

One solution would be to go into Wikipedia, a top of the list source for general information...

ahahahaha

Good one.

You are missing my point. If you want to raise the Declaration of Independence as an example, I would say there is another example of where, by making sure the schools and easily accessible sources of information have got it right, people will become less ignorant.

You seem to have an issue with getting more accurate information into the public domain. Why?

Lead a horse to water, etc. It's not like the truth is hard to find. Most people simply don't care.

I can stongly reccommend visiting this exhibition CM you will need to leave the USA scary thought I know

http://www.iwm.org.uk/exhibitions/iwm-london/the-holocaust-exhibition

But that's where they keep all the foreigners!

You really are pathetic.

And the claws come out.

Did you read the links I posted?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8386199&postcount=2652

I read one. It contained you getting logically spanked.

This was a complete surprise.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/3609/

Ultimately, our objective should be to create a society where denial of genocide is seen as so outrageous and so despicable that anyone who engages in it would be rendered a pariah.

Deborah E Lipstadt is Dorot Professor at Emory University and the author of History on Trial: My Day in Court with David Irving, published by Ecco 2005.

Only liars and liars with a self serving agenda need to shun people.

 

[000063]

No, but you seem to be saying that those 100 wouldn't have mattered, even if you had any evidence that this was the case.

But you don't, and it wasn't.

Are you ever going to reconcile your 94% figure with your claim that each and every Jew in the camps was a time bomb?

No, he's saying they would've been a powder keg if they existed (which they didn't) and if they had been subjected to what they allegedly were (which they weren't). Or something. Clay logic.

Really? And the Jewish people took their children to the alleged death camps after knowing this for about a decade?

Do you even consciously dodge these questions, or do they simply not register with you?

Still nothing about the variable death threats.

It all boils down to SooperJooos^TM.

[awesome]

Nominated.

I'm highlighting this one specifically because I can't believe you actually have the stones to ask it. The reason is the same as why people get so offended and upset at the suggestion by 9/11 Twoofers that 3,000+ people didn't die in the Towers, on the planes, and at the Pentagon: That's not just a statistic, those are real live people. They are mothers, they are fathers, they are wives, they are husbands, they are brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles. They leave very real voids in people's lives, and to suggest that what actually happened to them did not happen is incredibly offensive.

Not to mention the theories that necessarily mean that the cops and firefighters were complicit in the murder of thousands of civilians and hundreds of their colleagues, friends, and family.

Notice the double talk. Everyone knew of Hitler's intent of genocide.


Originally Posted by TSR View Post
No, that's how it seems to me. Tell us -- at what number does mass murder become genocide, given that the intent of genocide was made clear before Hitler ever came to power?

Clayton Moore

Dear sweet God in heaven you need help man

I am not being sardonic

Clayton. You have a hypothetical choice.
Either get killed now. Or killed later.
Which do you pick?
Why?
Which should the victims of the Holocaust have picked?

Or any other genocide.

Weird that this whole time bomb thing apparently didn't work on Jewish POWs, according to Clay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNTS9N9s1pE

No blue stains from the alleged Zykon-B gas chambers. Doors that latch from the inside and don't lock.

[spam]

We can tell you're trying to drag a red herring across the thread so people will stop asking questions you dislike, Moore.

 

[TSR]

Only liars and liars with a self serving agenda need to shun people.

ISTR something about this denier fallback position about Madagascar, or "to the East".

Do have any of that foot left? I *know* there can't be much left with all the bullet holes you've put in it.

 

[000063]

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/3609/





Only liars and liars with a self serving agenda need to shun people.

I'll shun anyone I please. If a guy comes to my house in a drunken stupor, breaks the door down, and vomits all over my cat, I reserve the right to shun him at work on Monday, assuming he's made bail.

Of course, anyone who wants to shun rapists, murderers, serial killers, and people who con retirees out of their pension money must be a liar or a liar with a self-serving agenda, right?

 

[Dogzilla]

Not to mention the irrelevancy of his complaint - as Nick Terry has shown, and as our German friends on this forum have repeated, many of the world's foremost scholars of the Holocaust are German. Their works are produced of their own volition and represent their interest, their research, and the fruits of international dialogue. Is Mondial alleging that Germany somehow coerces scholars into performing scholarly tasks in support of something they do not actually support? Such a claim would be certifiable, but if he is not making such a claim, his post offers not a whit of insight into why German scholars and others in Germany, rather than reject the Holocaust, work positively to understand and explicate the accomplishments of the Third Reich in this arena.

Legislation usually does not coerce people in to acting in ways that they do not want to act. It coerces them into not acting in ways that they do. That said, it's funny how some people are unable to grasp how a country's laws influence it's citizen's behavior. I guess Lemmycaution would look at the openly gay behavior you might see in West Hollywood or San Francisco and compare it to the openly gay behavior you see in Tehran and conclude that because Iranian law forbidding homosexuality doesn't mandate heterosexual behavior, it's obvious that there simply are no gay people in Iran.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

http://www.holocaust-history.org/klarsfeld/Struthof/T001.shtml
[...]
Obvious political biased work.
[...]

After studying this case last month, have you reached any other conclusions yet, ^Snaketongue^

Besides the Preface of J.C. Pressac's Struthof Album, have you read anything else on the subject of homicidal gassings in Natzweiler?

[recycling]" ... es folgerte daraus, dass massiv Giftgas aus dem Atemweg absorbiert worden war ..."
From "Die Namen Der Nummern, by Hans-Joachim Lang.

"Le volumineux rapport d'expertise médico-légale de C. Simonin, R. Piedelievre et J. Fourcade décrit méticuleusement l'autopsie de 17 sujets entiers , et de 166 segments de corps appartenant à 64 personnes au moins ; toutes présentant les signes d'une mort par inhalation d'acide cyanhydrique."
From "Les sciences morphologiques médicales à Strasbourg du XVe au XXe siècle", by Jean-Marie Le Minor. Presses Universitaires de Strasbourg (2002) p. 332

Holocaust deniers have in the past demonstrated a peculiar approach to translation so I was wondering, just for the record, if you would mind posting translations that you consider accurate for these excerpts I posted

Menachem Taffel was born in Poland. So were his wife and daughter. Why it was possible to perform an autopsy on his remains, and present the results in a court case at which August Hirt, one of those involved in the planning of the murders was convicted in absentia, is thoroughly documented in reliable sources. Why it wasn't possible to perform an autopsy on the remains of his wife and daughter is evident to reasonable people.

Hans Joachim Lang wrote:
"Am 12. März 1943 wurde der Kaufmann Taffel mit Frau und Tochter nach Auschwitz deportiert, Klara und Ester hat die SS unmittelbar nach der Ankunft an der Rampe selektiert und in der Gaskammer ermordet."
In: Die Namen der Nummern - Wie es gelang die 86 Opfer eines NS-Verbrechens zu identifizieren, Hans Joachim Lang, Fischer Verlag, Überarbeitete Ausgabe (2007) - Page 204-205

Those who don't behave like reasonable people are asked to explain what alternative they have for "the disappearance" of Polish born people like Klara and Esther Taffel.[/recycling]

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

Well, that's not much of an accomplishment for them, now, is it? To call for something is rather easy and doesn't tell anyone very much.

Have you read Roberto's HC blog postings on the archaeological work done at AR camps and Chelmno? What are the major questions you think this work needs to resolve? And you're implying, by saying "Why not drill and dig" that Holocaust historians are against such work, the very kind of work that Krege, with his lawn mover machine, flubbed (before going into hiding) and Sturdy Colls is doing? I'm not clear on what the issue is . . .

As JREF reader I must protest Mr. Berg's suggestion here. We were promised right here on JREF not too long ago by a poster who spoke for all of them -but is sadly no longer with us- that Holocaust deniers would be satisfied if someone would just go to Treblinka to conduct a non-invasive survey to show that the soil had been disturbed, since the last ice age. This poster was adamant that digging would not be required to settle it.

 

[I am Bigfoot]

Only liars and liars with a self serving agenda need to shun people.

So THAT'S why you hate Jews. Ok.

 

[Dogzilla]

It wasn't *your* comment it was made by one of our resident deniers with a habit of playing fast and loose with the facts and uncritically offered by you as proof of something no one here disputes, namely there are myths about many, if not most historical events, of which my mentioning the Roman twins is only one.

Explicitly: is it only the myths surrounding the Holocaust with which you have issue, and what is your solution? Because frankly, your personal happiness is not our responsibility.

Any examples of this playing fast and loose?

 

[Dogzilla]

You are missing my point. If you want to raise the Declaration of Independence as an example, I would say there is another example of where, by making sure the schools and easily accessible sources of information have got it right, people will become less ignorant.

You seem to have an issue with getting more accurate information into the public domain. Why?

It doesn't bother them if what you say about the holocaust is accurate. All that is important is that it sound really bad. There's also the problem of "no exacts" when it comes to the holocaust.

 

[Corsair 115]

Any examples of this playing fast and loose?

I recall you making a comment earlier in this thread that you are in interested in Holocaust revisionism from the point of view historical accuracy. I asked you what historical details, exactly, do you expect to be revised in any new examination of the Holocaust. You never did answer.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Nuremberg was a show trial if ever there was one. www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html One standard for the victors and one standard for the defeated. The soviet prosecution even accused the defendants of committing the Katyn massacre of which they were responsible. www.katyn.org.au Many prominent judges and jurists of the day dismissed the legal validity of the trials including US supreme court justice Harlan Fiske Stone who referred to them as a "sanctimonious fraud" and a "lynching party".

If you asked a person if the Germans made bars of soap or lampshades from the bodies of Jewish people an overwhelming majority would say yes. The evil Holocaust lies have been thoroughly imprinted into Western society.

 

[TSR]

If you asked a person if the Germans made bars of soap or lampshades from the bodies of Jewish people an overwhelming majority would say yes.

No, the majority would say "what? gross!"

And this ignores the facts that experiments were conducted in making soap from human bodies (religious persuasion unknown) and that tanned human skin was found at Buchenwald which, when since it was tattoo'd (a practice not allowed by Judaism) were not likely to be Jews.

And one notes your attempt to conflate "German" with "Nazi". I know you really want them to be, but they are not the same thing.

The evil Holocaust lies have been thoroughly imprinted into Western society.

No, your lies get point to and laughed at, once it becomes obvious you aren't going to give them up even after repeatedly being spanked by those nasty little fact thingies.

You know, like your SooperJooos who were all immune to the whole 94% thing?

 

[Corsair 115]

The evil Holocaust lies have been thoroughly imprinted into Western society.

And of all places and people, those "lies" are not denied by either Germans or Germany itself. Indeed, historical research conducted in Germany by Germans to this day continues to affirm the reality of the Holocaust.

Still can't square that circle, can you?