Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

OK, so while I continue to think GZ is an idiot, and that his public credibility has taken a hit over this, it was actually GZ's team which notified the court. If you think about it, and argument could actually be made that shows integrity, that he decided to tell his attorney and come clean. I'm not saying I'm making that argument , but it's am interesting counterpoint to those who now say GZ is a "proven liar" and appear to be in celebrations and think this proves that everything he's said is a lie.

Yes, because the guy who stole a car eventually returned the car. No harm, no foul. And don't mind the fact that he's checking out your car.

If you think about it, and argument could actually be made that shows integrity...

And be sure to limber up before you attempt a stretch like that. You don't want to pull anything.

At this point, the only people who are going to "think about" ways to demonstrate that Zimmerman has integrity are those with some kind of vested interest in seeing him proven innocent.

Those of us interested in the actual truth know when to call a spade a spade.

 

[johnny karate]

Multiple injury sites...

All of which can be explained by Zimmerman being punched in the nose and then scraping and cutting his head rolling around in the ensuing struggle.

...witnesses reporting sounds of fighting...

Which doesn't prove Martin hit Zimmerman more than once, or that he was bashing his head on the ground.

...witnesses seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman "struggling"...

Which doesn't prove Martin hit Zimmerman more than once, or that he was bashing his head on the ground.

...lack of pre-mortme injuries to Martin.

Martin's hands being virtually injury-free is a strong indicator he didn't repeatedly hit Zimmerman.

 

[Kaosium]

So any time an associate of someone held for trial commits a crime and is charged it is because the prosecution is trying to direct attention away from the true issues?

Not anytime that would be silly. However if they make a charge far past their evidence and then go after said person's wife for routine questions during a bond hearing regarding their legal defense fund, an issue that had been settled weeks before, then it's rational to at least wonder about it.

Why would they do that? What motive and reason would they have?

To put pressure on the defendant and to defame them publicly. This may very well 'help' with the jury beforehand, and makes for good press as they want the juicy details of the malfeasance of the defendant.

Corey doesn't care. The trial is held in the court of public opinion or at an undetermined time in the future?

There's also the fact that her career is at the whim of public opinion. This may be a drawback of having prosecutors being elected officials.

 

[Cylinder]

OK, so while I continue to think GZ is an idiot...

It was stupid.

Judge Lester is under tremendous pressure to show a heavy hand in this case. So far, the state has given him nothing. Zimmerman and his wife helped him out. You have to keep in mind that an immunity hearing is looming and with the state of evidence that exists so far, the court is going to have to make a decision that will be very unpopular to some.

It's been my practice to give the other guys a 24-hour window for celebration, then it's back to the facts.

The state needs a new PR consultant. They pulled the trigger too early. Shellie will be out of the news cycle before the next document dump. I wonder if they thought it possible or likely that it would be an immediate release order instead of 15 days.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm not going to argue with you on this issue any longer because, quite frankly, your arguments offend my intelligence.

So let's just put our money where our mouths are.

My position is that Zimmerman's wife will not be acquitted of this charge, nor will it be dismissed outright.

She will either be convicted, plead to a lesser charge, or have this charge dismissed as part of a plea agreement for her husband.

I assume your position is that she will be acquitted, or that the charge will be dropped outright.

So I propose a wager in which the loser must use an avatar of the winner's choosing for one month.

Agreed?

And by the way, this wager is open to all takers.

Johnny, it might be in the best interest of the Zimmerman's to plead it down to a misdemeanor for various reasons, a notable one being to avoid the additional public exposure and court appearances. Tell you what, give it a month and we'll see where it stands, I've got almost nothing to go on so far regarding what might be their strategy. At that juncture I might take you up on it.

I don't really have anything to win anyway, I don't have any interest in changing your avatar because I think it's a fine one, it cracks me up sometimes just looking at it. I will however continue to debate the merits of the issue if you deign to lower yourself to engage such a demented creature such as myself.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I haven't really followed the perjury angle too closely but from the little I have it seems like the evidence is overwhelming that GZ's wife lied to the court. Denying that seems as ridiculous to me as those who would suggest that GZ injured himself. And I don't go for this excusing it away either, how they were terrified about not having any way to support themselves etc. Here's how this should have actually played out:

GZ: OK, just so you know Mr. OMara, we've collected 200K from Paypal, but I'm terrified if we tell the court that they'll want it all and we've got no way to survive.

OMara: Don't worry George, how much money you have is only one factor the court takes into consideration, we'll explain in court that you need this money to live on.

And the judge would probably have granted bail not too different than what he set in the first place.

 

[Cylinder]

OMara: Don't worry George, how much money you have is only one factor the court takes into consideration, we'll explain in court that you need this money to live on.

Also, since it was a defense fund, MOM could have put it in trust and it wouldn't have to be reported to the court, since it's been paid to his attorney.

 

[KatieG]

I haven't really followed the perjury angle too closely but from the little I have it seems like the evidence is overwhelming that GZ's wife lied to the court. Denying that seems as ridiculous to me as those who would suggest that GZ injured himself. And I don't go for this excusing it away either, how they were terrified about not having any way to support themselves etc. Here's how this should have actually played out:

GZ: OK, just so you know Mr. OMara, we've collected 200K from Paypal, but I'm terrified if we tell the court that they'll want it all and we've got no way to survive.

OMara: Don't worry George, how much money you have is only one factor the court takes into consideration, we'll explain in court that you need this money to live on.

And the judge would probably have granted bail not too different than what he set in the first place.

Exactly! That's why the lying outright and lying by omission is a big thing. If you'll lie about a small thing, why wouldn't you lie about a big thing? That money was donated to GZ, it was his to use as needed. That's all MO'M had to tell Judge Lester. The problem was also trying to get GZ declared indigent by the court so he'd qualify for a PD or, as happened in the beginning, MO'M was taking the case pro bono. He knew the donations would pick up. He didn't expect to get totally blindsided by his client and the wife playing Stupid Jailhouse Conversations 101.

Being stupid doesn't make you guilty of any crime, it just enhances the opportunity for internet mavens to laugh at you. Or Judges to get pissed off at you. Contempt of Court is a real charge, with real consequences.

 

[crimresearch]

I haven't really followed the perjury angle too closely but from the little I have it seems like the evidence is overwhelming that GZ's wife lied to the court. Denying that seems as ridiculous to me as those who would suggest that GZ injured himself. And I don't go for this excusing it away either, how they were terrified about not having any way to support themselves etc. Here's how this should have actually played out:

GZ: OK, just so you know Mr. OMara, we've collected 200K from Paypal, but I'm terrified if we tell the court that they'll want it all and we've got no way to survive.

OMara: Don't worry George, how much money you have is only one factor the court takes into consideration, we'll explain in court that you need this money to live on.

And the judge would probably have granted bail not too different than what he set in the first place.

It seems incontrovertible that she made statements under oath that didn't meet the 'truth, whole truth' part of the bargain.

And one of the elements of the crime is that the accused must have *believed* that what they were saying was not true... which, like the self defense claim for George, requires legal tests to take the place of a mind reading machine.

But the bottom line for her case, is still not going to produce the domino effect some have claimed.

 

[KatieG]

It seems incontrovertible that she made statements under oath that didn't meet the 'truth, whole truth' part of the bargain.

And one of the elements of the crime is that the accused must have *believed* that what they were saying was not true... which, like the self defense claim for George, requires legal tests to take the place of a mind reading machine.

But the bottom line for her case, is still not going to produce the domino effect some have claimed.

I agree. I've yet to understand why 2 people doing a stupid thing will have any effect on GZ. Lying to the court is stupid, lying by omission is stupid.

Now, what were we saying about the charges against GZ? And how much we're all looking forward to the doc dump within 15 days?

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/13/164455/280

Jeralyn's take on the release order. (She's a defense attorney, btw.)

 

[Kaosium]

I haven't really followed the perjury angle too closely but from the little I have it seems like the evidence is overwhelming that GZ's wife lied to the court. Denying that seems as ridiculous to me as those who would suggest that GZ injured himself. And I don't go for this excusing it away either, how they were terrified about not having any way to support themselves etc. Here's how this should have actually played out:

GZ: OK, just so you know Mr. OMara, we've collected 200K from Paypal, but I'm terrified if we tell the court that they'll want it all and we've got no way to survive.

OMara: Don't worry George, how much money you have is only one factor the court takes into consideration, we'll explain in court that you need this money to live on.

And the judge would probably have granted bail not too different than what he set in the first place.

He knew that too, going from the APC.

Tell you what, a long time ago I started lurking this thread because of something known as 'Easy Voice Biometrics' which made the claim that they could eliminate GZ as the one calling for help on witness 911 calls with that distorted sample. I thought that kind of a neat idea, but was rather skeptical of that claim as I've some knowledge of a slightly related field and an interest in science employed in the justice field. I recall arguments that he'd testified in court so many times, that he had a cool website, that so many talking heads were convinced, and if I recall correctly that it might even be libel (!) to deny his expertise on JREF. However I found the arguments of others more compelling because they made sense, and I was rather glad the people who were making the unpopular arguments didn't just give up on them because the talk shows and the courts had approved of this clown.

I don't know if she's guilty of perjury or not, I do know that a statement from the record that is false is not all that's required. I also found it curious that one seemingly important piece of information was missing from the APC, notably just how much money was in her account on the twentieth when she testified. They had details of transactions from ~16th to the 19th, and then another from the 24th, but wouldn't the obvious data to include seem to be just what was in that or other accounts on the 20th?

You wrote a post a few pages ago about how moronic it makes them look if they thought they could deliberately deceive the court about something that didn't actually matter. That could be because they are, but could also be because they weren't actually doing that. They didn't realize that paypal contributions for a legal defense fund were what was being talked about when referring to their assets, it could also be that her answer was actually the right one at the moment she gave it, which is why the information from the account on the 20th is curiously missing.

I do know that if I went only by what I read of the prosecution APC on the real charge I'd think that George Zimmerman disobeyed police and then hunted down Trayvon Martin and picked a fight with him before he shot him. Thus I am disinclined to take this APC at face value and think there might be another explanation outside the one the prosecution alleged, and perhaps even additional evidence that isn't in the APC.

She is going to be allowed a defense, right? A trial and everything? With perhaps more information available than just what the prosecution saw fit to include in their accusation? Maybe there's more to this story?

Or then again, maybe not, but it's interesting to talk about.

 

[bookworm]

Myself? Purposefully pull my car over and stare at someone, and then get out and follow them after they pass by, as Zimmerman did? Actually, I *never* do this, because pretty much every guy where I'm from would see this as threatening. And as a matter of fact, if I'm walking behind a woman, at night, on an otherwise empty street, I'll likely walk to the other side to let her know that I'm not about to jump her from behind.

It's interesting how so many of Zimmerman's defenders make it out like Zimmerman just pulled over for a stroll, and just happened to be somewhere near Martin when he did this. In reality, it's perfectly clear that Zimmerman had decided, for no apparent reason, that he had to at the very least keep a close watch on Martin. And given that all Martin knew was that some random guy was chasing him when he was just walking home, I'd say he was absolutely correct to be frightened or upset.

I agree. What I can't see is someone who is frightened sticking around instead of getting somewhere safe. I also would say it's understandable if he was p'd off about it. But IF he hit him for it, that's assault. We don't get to hit someone for following us. I've always maintained that they both misunderstood each other and made poor decisions and this is the tragical result of it. I still maintain that if someone is hitting your head off the ground and you shoot him, it's self-defense.

 

[Dancing David]

MOM also hinted in the hearing on the media motions that some of Zimmerman's statements may have been illegally obtained. I don't know if he was trying to kick the can or if he plans on challenging the initial statements.

That could be a real interesting set of days in court if they do.

 

[Dancing David]

Not anytime that would be silly. However if they make a charge far past their evidence

I am uncertain you actually know the evidence, do you?

and then go after said person's wife for routine questions during a bond hearing regarding their legal defense fund,

Duder, she is charged with perjury. the legals system is not being abused.

She had knowledge of the money and access to it. If the charge sticks remains to be seen.

Your hyperbole detracts from your valid points.

an issue that had been settled weeks before, then it's rational to at least wonder about it.



To put pressure on the defendant and to defame them publicly.

And how was GZ defamed exactly, in fairly land, You hyperbole again detracts from any valid points you make.

This may very well 'help' with the jury beforehand, and makes for good press as they want the juicy details of the malfeasance of the defendant.

And your evidence of this tactic is?

watching reality TV?

There's also the fact that her career is at the whim of public opinion. This may be a drawback of having prosecutors being elected officials.

It is a democracy.

That has nothing to do with charging SZ.

 

[Dancing David]

It was stupid.

Judge Lester is under tremendous pressure to show a heavy hand in this case. So far, the state has given him nothing.

Why is he up for election this year? Pressure from who, people in his voting district or people outside.

 

[GWCarver]

Why is he up for election this year? Pressure from who, people in his voting district or people outside.

Judge Lester got handed this can of worms without the evidence to go along with it. Just try to imagine what will happen if he has no choice but to let Zimmerman go at an SYG hearing. Will the mob just say, "aw shucks" and go about their business? Z will go into hiding. What will Judge Lester do?

 

[Kaosium]

I am uncertain you actually know the evidence, do you?

Yes, would you like to go into it in excruciating detail like that...other thread?

Duder, she is charged with perjury. the legals system is not being abused.

I disagree. Going after family members for perjury about transactions from a paypal account during a bond hearing strikes me as a fine example of trumped up charges. They had to go looking for this, something that was resolved within days.

She had knowledge of the money and access to it. If the charge sticks remains to be seen.

Why do you think it might not stick?

Your hyperbole detracts from your valid points.

And how was GZ defamed exactly, in fairly land, You hyperbole again detracts from any valid points you make.

Just plug in the word you like better then, it won't actually matter (much) to the argument. Sometimes I like to have fun with words, but also at other times I mean exactly what I say and if you think it hyperbolic it might be because I think you're wrong--like this case.

You don't think being accused of being a liar is defamation? It's an easy way to smear someone, find something they said that was wrong or untrue and call them a liar and there's silly little dupes out there who won't trust a thing they say from then on. There's people who know that and use it to their advantage.

Remember how some were saying that this issue coming up meant GZ must be guilty and would be found so because he 'lied' about the bond issue?

And your evidence of this tactic is?

A rather depressing read through many miscarriages of justice the last two years.

watching reality TV?

Indeed, the worst one out there...politics.

It is a democracy.

That has nothing to do with charging SZ.

Not quite, it probably has to do with hurting GZ through charging SZ and making her charges look justified for her admiring voters.

 

[This is The End]

Interesting Florida hoodie law:

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/876.12

OK that's not a hoodie law.

You say "hoodie law", yet the law is from 1951 about "hoods".

Those cover the entire face and have eye-holes. Think KKK or a medieval executioner.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/876.155