Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Natural Born Skeptic]

There was one thing John said in that above interview I referenced, that has me scratching my head.

Something he said at about the 33:00 - 34:00 minute mark here...

He describes the position TM's body was in when he saw it immediately after it happened was (paraphrase) "like a crime-scene chalk outline."

(and draws it out for two minutes)

I assume like this:
[qimg]http://www.gamesprays.com/images/icons/chalk_icon1447.jpg[/qimg]

One hand up, other down, as if 'swimming.'

You can hear it here (fast up to about the 33 minute mark)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6GS61UCxQ&feature=youtu.be

Yet police found TM with his hands under him. Hmmm.

Once again it looks like you've broken the case wide open, you should get on the phone with Corey right away.

 

[Rare Truth]

I do believe Bernie convinced him he hadn't actually seen Z's lips moving, because it was too dark. But, John still says he assumed the guy on the bottom was the one screaming while viewing the fight, and that is almost as good for a jury. I'm assuming if he takes the stand, O'Mara will bring that out when questioning him about his previous statements.

And, Bernie is still going to have to face the problem of convincing any group of people, let alone a jury, that in this fight, the guy on the top, the one who suffered no injuries until he was shot, was the one screaming, and the guy on the bottom, the one who actually had injuries, was just absorbing those injuries silently.

I don't think he's going to have as hard a time as you say, coupled with the other forensic evidence, the photo's, the autopsy report, and the reality that TM did all that punching and grabbing and head banging without getting a single trace of foreign DNA on his fingernails, hands, cuffs and lower sleeves from GZ who had alllllllllll that blood on his face and head.

 

[Rare Truth]

Once again it looks like you've broken the case wide open, you should get on the phone with Corey right away.

There you go again...you complain about the direction of the thread, and ridicule those you don't agree with, and someone puts out a perfectly valid perplexing discrepancy, and you spew out that garbage.

Do you really think smart ass comments like that advance the conversation?

Would you agree the position of the body is one element to helping to determine the validity of Z's story?

Would you say "John's" statement on body position was inaccurate? He seems to be of sure of that as he was the color of the jacket that was on the bottom.

Would you agree or disagree there is a solid discrepancy to be found there?

 

[Kaosium]

Has this specific claim been supported? We know the money is in a trust, O'Mara put it there shortly after his client withheld it's extent from the court. But have we seen the actual form of the trust?

I don't think the money being in the trust is going to protect if from being considered when setting the new bail. These were assets George had access to prior to the original bail hearing. If George subsequently hid this money from himself and it turns out that he would need it to post the new bail, he'll just have to sit in his jail cell until he finds another way to come up with the money. The court is under no obligation to accommodate his stupid decisions.

Here's the source for the trust:

Since the independently managed Legal Defense Fund was established on May 3, supporters have contributed more than $37,000. Of this amount, $2,000 has been designated for household expenses. Less than $300 has been designated for fund management and fees associated with maintaining the conditions of the bond. None of the funds have yet to be allocated to legal expenses. Neither Mr. Zimmerman or the defense team has direct access to the independently managed Legal Defense Fund.

 

[johnny karate]

The fact that the state can't prove Zimmerman didn't act in self-defense.

That's not a fact. That's your opinion. The state has yet to present their case. You have no idea at this point what they will or won't be able to prove.

What else you got?

That is supported by Serino's statement that was made contemporaneously with the capias he filled out that did not describe a crime and was not signed by a State Attorney. And, he made that statement to the newspaper at a meeting that was scheduled in order to clear the air regarding all of the erroneous data that was flying around at the time.

The "two figures" chasing each other had turned into one, even at the time Gilbreath testified to two at the bond hearing.

And DeeDee, well, whatever the final version of her testimony might be, I think she'll fall apart on cross examination and be completely discredited, should she ever take the stand. In fact, I think she is already discredited. Her recent addition of TM saying "get off me" is the cherry on top of the BS sundae.

So... nothing then. No facts of which I am on the wrong side. Just your opinion that for some reason you feel should be accepted as a fact.

I am perfectly prepared to proven wrong and accept that outcome once this thing goes to trial and all the facts are brought to light.

Are you?

 

[sgtbaker]

I can't say we can "discount" him per say, but his story changed.

That not what you said, though. You said that we don't have a witness who says that. Yes, all witnesses stories will change because as time goes on, imagination will fill in where memory gets lost in some areas and you get less sure of what you actually remember at others. That is why there is an acceptable level of variation in recollection. None of that changes the fact that the interview with the original interview with the police, he identifies who was on top and who was on bottom, who was hitting who, and who was screaming for help.

 

[Rare Truth]

That not what you said, though. You said that we don't have a witness who says that. Yes, all witnesses stories will change because as time goes on, imagination will fill in where memory gets lost in some areas and you get less sure of what you actually remember at others. That is why there is an acceptable level of variation in recollection. None of that changes the fact that the interview with the original interview with the police, he identifies who was on top and who was on bottom, who was hitting who, and who was screaming for help.

You didn't listen to the Witness6 interview, did you?

 

[johnny karate]

It's challenging for me to understand how some posters fail to see how that fact furthers Zimmerman's justification claim. It detracts heavily from the "will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent" element of the crime. Zimmerman clearly was not on the offensive in this assault.

You have no factual basis for that claim. There are other ways to assault someone aside from punching them.

Just ask Zimmerman. He managed to assault a police officer without throwing a punch or injuring the man. It was still assault though.

There are multiple scenarios in which Martin may have been defending himself with that punch. Zimmerman could have grabbed him, shoved him (something for which his personal history demonstrates he has a penchant), or taken a swing that didn't connect.

The point is, none of us know for sure. But to dismiss the notion that Zimmerman assaulted or somehow provoked Martin is a dismissal born of pure speculation.

It removes the hypothetical claim that Zimmerman overreacted to a simple fistfight. Most importantly, it's clear evidence of the disparity of force that existed between Martin and Zimmerman before the fatal gunshot.

It removes no such claim. Martin could very well been defending himself in the altercation. And the only clear disparity of force that exists is the one in which a guy who got punched shot and killed the guy who punched him.

It will be the defense, not the state, that highlights the extent of Martin's pre-mortem injuries. The only way this works against Zimmerman is if he claimed that the injuries on the back of his head were the results of punches instead on having his head slammed against concrete

I doubt that. Especially if the claim is that Zimmerman was pummeled or beaten as so many in this thread seem willing to believe. Pummelings and beatings would necessitate injuries on the hands of the assailant commensurate with those on the victim.

 

[johnny karate]

You didn't listen to the Witness6 interview, did you?

There seems to be this general point of view that Witness #6's additional statements are to be ignored.

I'm not sure how anyone who holds that view thinks that's going to play out in court, but I have a feeling they will be quite disappointed when the judge fails to rule "No do-overs" on witness testimony.

 

[GWCarver]

That's not a fact. That's your opinion. The state has yet to present their case. You have no idea at this point what they will or won't be able to prove.

What else you got?



So... nothing then. No facts of which I am on the wrong side. Just your opinion that for some reason you feel should be accepted as a fact.

I am perfectly prepared to proven wrong and accept that outcome once this thing goes to trial and all the facts are brought to light.

Are you?

I don't see any way a published statement by the lead investigator can't be considered a fact. What you have here is an opportunity to prove it isn't a fact. I guess that means you need to prove he didn't make that statement to the reporter who wrote the article in the Sentinel, or the meeting didn't actually take place. Something like that.

 

[Rare Truth]

Lack of defensive wounds on Zimmerman is one strong indicator to me.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't see any way a published statement by the lead investigator can't be considered a fact. What you have here is an opportunity to prove it isn't a fact. I guess that means you need to prove he didn't make that statement to the reporter who wrote the article in the Sentinel, or the meeting didn't actually take place. Something like that.

So appeal to authority it is then.

Is everything Serino has to say about this case to be taken as indisputable fact? Or just the statements you happen to agree with?

 

[Dan O.]

Here's the source for the trust:

Thanks.

No direct access is more believable than untouchable. There is still considerable latitude in what form of indirect access is permitted.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

There you go again...you complain about the direction of the thread, and ridicule those you don't agree with...

I ridicule absurd positions, not just because someone disagrees with me.

and someone puts out a perfectly valid perplexing discrepancy, and you spew out that garbage.

I don't understand where your anger is coming from, I was complimenting you for breaking the case wide open. You sure do seem to easily get your panties in a bunch for someone that so enjoys taunting and trolling. Tsk tsk.

 

[GWCarver]

So appeal to authority it is then.

Is everything Serino has to say about this case to be taken as indisputable fact? Or just the statements you happen to agree with?

That statement was a summary of his findings as lead investigator of the Trayvon Martin homicide, and presented as such. The Capias he submitted actually supports his published conclusion in the Sentinel, in that there is no description of a crime being committed. One has to assume he knew it wouldn't be approved when he wrote it. I am still kind of baffled about this, although I have worked for several very large corporations as well the military, so I'm aware it is not unusual at all for a request to come down to do something that makes no sense, or for it to even be routine. Oh, the stories I could tell...

 

[Rare Truth]

Anyone think Zimmerman's prior work as a bouncer - a job where one must be able to apply good fighting skills and effective counter techniques to get oneself out of the kind of binding situations that occur with volatile combatants quickly - could come up at trial?

I mean, not necessarily the part where he was fired because of his "Jeckle/Hyde," out-of-control, "he just snapped" temper...

 

[Rare Truth]

I ridicule absurd positions, not just because someone disagrees with me.

I don't understand where your anger is coming from, I was complimenting you for breaking the case wide open. You sure do seem to easily get your panties in a bunch for someone that so enjoys taunting and trolling. Tsk tsk.

What a pantload.

You were complimenting me. ha!

I guess passive-aggressive is a way of life for some folks...

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Anyone think Zimmerman's prior work as a bouncer - a job where one must be able to apply good fighting skills and effective counter techniques to get oneself out of the kind of binding situations that occur with volatile combatants quickly - could come up at trial?

I bet it will, including the in-depth hand to hand combat training he no doubt when through to get that job. In fact, I hear bouncers that worked at that bar are so deadly that can kill their victims with a single finger, sometimes even just a thought.

Unfortunately it does not appear to have prepared him for TM's mad fighting skillz, due to his in-depth training with other teenagers, not to mention all the skills TM gained from refereeing.

 

[Rare Truth]

That statement was a summary of his findings as lead investigator of the Trayvon Martin homicide, and presented as such. The Capias he submitted actually supports his published conclusion in the Sentinell...

How can you say that when a good portion of Serino's capias looks like this?

 

[Rare Truth]

I bet it will, including the in-depth hand to hand combat training he no doubt when through to get that job. In fact, I hear bouncers that worked at that bar are so deadly that can kill their victims with a single finger, sometimes even just a thought.

<looks up to the lurkers>

See what I mean?